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Thread: Ancestry Results Reveal a Major Oops!!! Need second Opinions, Please.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    You are correct. No matter who the person matches, a second cousin's great grandparents are actually my grandparents. So all of my first cousin's children are my second cousins.
    No that's not what I mean. For a second cousin, my great grandparents are also my second cousin's great grandparents. A second cousin is someone who is a great grandchild of your great grandparents. A first cousin once removed would be someone who is a grandchild of your great grandparents. This chart shows the relationship. You are the same generation as your second cousin. Your first cousins' children are your first cousins once removed.

    rel-chart.gif
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Paternal ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    Father's mtDNA: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon (H27e1)
    Maternal ancestor (mt): McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    Paternal great grandfather (mt): Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)

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     Power77 (03-19-2019)

  3. #12
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    If I'm following the story, that would make you and the match's mother first cousins, and so this match your first cousin once removed. The range for that relationship is 141-851 cM (235-665 cM for 95th percentile range) -- does that look likely based on your match?

    Given that he made the match private once it looked like he might learn something he might not be ready to learn, I'd leave it. If he decides he wants to know, he knows he can reach out.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    If I'm following the story, that would make you and the match's mother first cousins, and so this match your first cousin once removed. The range for that relationship is 141-851 cM (235-665 cM for 95th percentile range) -- does that look likely based on your match?

    Given that he made the match private once it looked like he might learn something he might not be ready to learn, I'd leave it. If he decides he wants to know, he knows he can reach out.
    He and I share 358 cM, which puts him towards the bottom of my 1st/2nd cousin matches. My highest second cousin match is my dad's first cousin, we share 483cM. I have another match who is my dad's first cousin and we share 365 cM, so this match is in the 1st/2nd range with a probability of being a 2nd cousin. The thing that really sucks is that my mother's family is very tight. I mentioned that my oldest uncle is not my grandfather's. We don't know what happened as my grandmother never talked about it. My grandfather probably knew what happened, but the rest of the family didn't. Anyway, she ended up pregnant and not married and her father, my great grandfather sent her to a home in Delaware for unwed mothers to have the baby and put the baby up for adoption, but she couldn't do it and came back home with my uncle. The story was that my great grandfather was livid and beat her pretty bad, this came from my great uncle who was younger than my grandmother. So when she met my grandfather, my uncle was two and according to my uncle my grandfather treated him better than the rest of the kids, 10 total. My grandmother welcomed everyone. She had the biggest heart. This is really killing me, particularly because my matches mother could be the daughter of my uncle who passed away at the age of 30, never having married or had children. But, I really am leaning towards this match's mother being the biological daughter of one of my three older uncles. I am sure of it.

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     msmarjoribanks (03-22-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    No that's not what I mean. For a second cousin, my great grandparents are also my second cousin's great grandparents. A second cousin is someone who is a great grandchild of your great grandparents. A first cousin once removed would be someone who is a grandchild of your great grandparents. This chart shows the relationship. You are the same generation as your second cousin. Your first cousins' children are your first cousins once removed.

    rel-chart.gif
    Sorry, my fault. He would properly be a 1st cousin, once removed. Ancestry lists them as probable second cousins, however, say with my dad's first cousin, who's tree is linked with mine, it actually shows the shared grand parents and on two columns lists me and him, showing order of descent. So where I am fourth generation descent, my dad's first cousin is 3rd generation descent, and here it says 1st cousin, once removed. My confusion. Based on cM's, then, this match would be a 1st cousin, once removed.

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     Power77 (03-19-2019)

  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Sorry, my fault. He would properly be a 1st cousin, once removed. Ancestry lists them as probable second cousins, however, say with my dad's first cousin, who's tree is linked with mine, it actually shows the shared grand parents and on two columns lists me and him, showing order of descent. So where I am fourth generation descent, my dad's first cousin is 3rd generation descent, and here it says 1st cousin, once removed. My confusion. Based on cM's, then, this match would be a 1st cousin, once removed.
    You basically have it, except that it really isn't based on shared cM but on actual position in the tree. There's the possibility of overlap in the amount of shared cM for certain relationships, so a particular 2nd cousin could actually share more cM with you than a 1st cousin once removed. Of course, if that 1st cousin once removed is the parent of the 2nd cousin, then the 2nd cousin won't share more -- unless there's an additional source of shared DNA.

    I can illustrate what I mean using my daughter and some of her parents' 1st cousins. These are of course 1st cousins once removed to our daughter. With one on my side, my daughter shares 428 cM across 18 segments; while with a second one on my side, she shares 307 cM across 17 segments.

    With one 1st cousin once removed on her mother' side, my daughter shares 348 cM across 18 segments; but with another on her mother's side, she shares 224 cM across 14 segments. Note that this last one, in particular, is really in "2nd cousin" territory, even though they are definitely 1st cousins once removed. This same cousin and my wife share 714 cM across 32 segments, so you can see that our daughter simply inherited quite a bit less than half the DNA shared between her mother and her mother's 1st cousin.

    My daughter has 2nd cousins that she shares more cM with than with this particular 1st cousin once removed. In fact, with one of them she shares 276 cM across 14 segments. But it's not how much cM shared there is that determines what their degree of cousinship is, but rather the actual descent from the common ancestors. They are both great grandchildren of the same couple, who happen to have been my grandparents.

    But, companies use the amount of shared cM to predict the relationship. They may not always get it right because of two complicating factors. One is that there is some overlap, as I said. A given 2nd cousin might share more DNA than a given 1st cousin once removed.

    In addition to that, the tables of cM shared always assume that only one relationship is involved. There can be more than one, as in the case of double 1st cousins. Because they're 1st cousins on both sides, instead of having just two grandparents in common, they actually have all four grandparents in common. This doesn't make them as close, genetically, as full siblings; but it does make them as close as half siblings. In other words, on average they share the same amount of DNA as half siblings do, instead of just the amount 1st cousins share.

    I've mentioned in other posts that I have a 3rd cousin who is also my 3rd cousin once removed, because his father is a 2nd cousin once removed to me, and his mother is a 3rd cousin. I have some other relatives who have as many as four or five different ways of being related to me. In all cases, it's only on one side for me.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by geebee View Post
    You basically have it, except that it really isn't based on shared cM but on actual position in the tree. There's the possibility of overlap in the amount of shared cM for certain relationships, so a particular 2nd cousin could actually share more cM with you than a 1st cousin once removed. Of course, if that 1st cousin once removed is the parent of the 2nd cousin, then the 2nd cousin won't share more -- unless there's an additional source of shared DNA.

    I can illustrate what I mean using my daughter and some of her parents' 1st cousins. These are of course 1st cousins once removed to our daughter. With one on my side, my daughter shares 428 cM across 18 segments; while with a second one on my side, she shares 307 cM across 17 segments.

    With one 1st cousin once removed on her mother' side, my daughter shares 348 cM across 18 segments; but with another on her mother's side, she shares 224 cM across 14 segments. Note that this last one, in particular, is really in "2nd cousin" territory, even though they are definitely 1st cousins once removed. This same cousin and my wife share 714 cM across 32 segments, so you can see that our daughter simply inherited quite a bit less than half the DNA shared between her mother and her mother's 1st cousin.

    My daughter has 2nd cousins that she shares more cM with than with this particular 1st cousin once removed. In fact, with one of them she shares 276 cM across 14 segments. But it's not how much cM shared there is that determines what their degree of cousinship is, but rather the actual descent from the common ancestors. They are both great grandchildren of the same couple, who happen to have been my grandparents.

    But, companies use the amount of shared cM to predict the relationship. They may not always get it right because of two complicating factors. One is that there is some overlap, as I said. A given 2nd cousin might share more DNA than a given 1st cousin once removed.

    In addition to that, the tables of cM shared always assume that only one relationship is involved. There can be more than one, as in the case of double 1st cousins. Because they're 1st cousins on both sides, instead of having just two grandparents in common, they actually have all four grandparents in common. This doesn't make them as close, genetically, as full siblings; but it does make them as close as half siblings. In other words, on average they share the same amount of DNA as half siblings do, instead of just the amount 1st cousins share.

    I've mentioned in other posts that I have a 3rd cousin who is also my 3rd cousin once removed, because his father is a 2nd cousin once removed to me, and his mother is a 3rd cousin. I have some other relatives who have as many as four or five different ways of being related to me. In all cases, it's only on one side for me.
    So now being a 1st cousin, once removed who matches my cousins on my grandmother and grandfather's sides of the family, my scenario is correct? His great grandparents are my grandparents, making his mom my probable first cousin, making one of my uncles his mother's probable biological father.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    So now being a 1st cousin, once removed who matches my cousins on my grandmother and grandfather's sides of the family, my scenario is correct? His great grandparents are my grandparents, making his mom my probable first cousin, making one of my uncles his mother's probable biological father.
    All I can say is that your scenario certainly seems plausible. It's just that there are some relationships that can be difficult to distinguish just by the amount of shared DNA. For example, a 1st cousin once removed versus a half 1st cousin. The DNA shared is pretty much the same.

    As you likely known, if two people are "1st cousins once removed", that means that a parent of one of them is 1st cousin to the other one. "Half 1st cousins", on the other hand, share only one grandparent instead of two; a parent of one of them is a half sibling to the other.

    I don't have any tested half 1st cousins, but I do have several half 2nd cousins. We share a single great grandmother but have different great grandfathers. Oddly enough, I'm actually related to these half 1st cousins on their father's side as well -- since my great grandmother and her first husband were 2nd cousins.

    I also have some half 2nd cousins on my father's side. We share only a great grandfather in this case ... although, come to think of it, my half 2nd cousins do have a distant relationship to my great grandmother. My great grandparents in this instance were unmarried, but they were also 2nd cousins twice removed. So I have a set of ancestors through the two of them that are my 3rd great grandparents on one side and my 5th great grandparents on the other.

    So you have to take the amount of sharing and put it together with whatever clues you have -- which seems to be what you've done. To me, your conclusion makes sense ... but, there's no certainty of being correct. You have to settle for what seems probable.

    I have a similar situation with one set of my great grandparents, my maternal grandfather's parents. I actually have greater certainty about who they were than I do about which of their sons was actually my grandfather. It was either one of their known sons, in which case the man I knew as my grandfather was actually not my mother's biological father.

    Or, there are indications that the man my mother knew as "Daddy" really was her biological father, but in that case the people who raised him were not his biological parents. I could probably resolve this one way or another if one of my only two biological 1st cousins on this side were to take a DNA test. If we share both grandparents, then it's very likely that the husband of my mother's mother was also my mother's father. If we turn out to be only half 1st cousins, that would mean my mother had a different father than my cousins' father. (Since they both definitely had the same mother.)

    Unfortunately ... I already asked one of the two cousins. She didn't say "no", she just stopped talking to me.
    Last edited by geebee; 03-19-2019 at 10:49 PM.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

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