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Thread: West Mediterranean Paper focus on Iranian and Steppe ancestry

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    Part of villanovan/proto-etruscan etruscan culture had its root in urnfield.
    And connections between Nuragic civilization and etruscans is well-documented.
    Maybe that could be a route for J2b-L283 to sardinia, Urnfield->Villanova->Nuragic.
    In this scenario the Croatian J2b-L283 already branched of from central european tumulus culture J2b-L283, while the nuragic one only went south during urnfield.

    A mediterranean route from the balkans or Iberia can't be ruled out yet either, although J2b-L283 seems most likely to have spread through the continental route, and not a mediterranean one.
    Agreed. I think the most likely scenario is that this L283 came from the mainland Italy, and likely this is the case for all Sardinian L283's. For this culture wiki mentions connections with northern Italy.

    As far as I've seen, a Mediterranean route for L283 expansion into Europe doesn't make much sense. For example the new Albanian sample that's on YFull right below J-Z597 will split the J-FGC64029 subclade upstream of Lebanon/Columbia at 3/12 SNPs, which suggests this Lebanese cluster migrated there from the southern Balkans.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    Part of villanovan/proto-etruscan etruscan culture had its root in urnfield. And connections between Nuragic civilization and etruscans is well-documented. Maybe that could be a route for J2b-L283 to sardinia, Urnfield->Villanova->Nuragic. A mediterranean route from the balkans or Iberia can't be ruled out yet either, although J2b-L283 seems most likely to have spread through the continental route, and not a mediterranean one.
    The Etruscan themselves seem to have been an intrusive group in Italy that arrived from the Aegean sometime during the Bronze Age, after the Indo-European migration into the area. It is possible that L283 may have been spread by Urnfield peopels into Italy. I do think that L283 in this case arrived via the Italian peninsula given the fact that Bronze Age Sardinia had contact with mainland Italy as well as similarities between some ancient Sardinian cultures and mainland Italian ones. As Principe mentioned, the clade that this sample potentially belongs to may have migrated to Italy or the Balkans directly from the Caucasus or Steppe prior to major IE migrations. However it could also be linked to IE speakers considering that the Bell-Beakers did have presence in Sardinia, but I don't know how accurate this is.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 03-21-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I think so as well, those branches have clear associations with Sardinia. The paper seems to suggest that L283 in Bronze Age Sardinia came from somewhere in the Mediterranean, probably Italy or the Balkans based on material evidence. The sample seems to be lacking in Steppe input so perhaps L283 carriers had a very small impact originally, that is if the Steppe-L283 connection is true. What culture would you link these L283 migrants(assuming they migrated to Sardinia during the Bronze Age) to?
    Probably because J2-L283 = steppe isn't true. Recall that for a sample to be labeled "Steppe", it is the formation of Yamnaya ancestry, and must possess a large chunk of EHG related ancestry. This is different from samples labeled Iran-Neolithic who pretty much lack any EHG at all, or if they have it, it is minute. Lineages are constantly being absorbed from mixing with other groups of people, so the Y-chomosome isnt always indicative, but the geography of the sample is. The sample being BA Croatian is more indicative than being J2-L283
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The Etruscan themselves seem to have been an intrusive group in Italy that arrived from the Aegean sometime during the Bronze Age, after the Indo-European migration into the area. I do think that L283 in this case may have arrived via the Italian peninsula given the fact that Bronze Age Sardinia had contact with mainland Italy as well as similarities between some ancient Sardinian cultures and mainland Italian ones. As Principe mentioned, the clade that this sample potentially belongs to may have migrated to Italy or the Balkans directly from the Caucasus or Steppe prior to major IE migrations. However it could also be linked to IE speakers considering that the Bell-Beakers did have presence in Sardinia, but I don't know how accurate this is.
    I agree that its most likely that J2b-L283 came to Sardinia from the Italian peninsula.
    Although the etruscans were not invaders from the aegean as far as i know. They most likely developed in situ during the Villanovan period.
    But of course the Villanovan period was not static, so you could be right that people from the aegean settled there during the etruscan ethnogenesis. But most archaeologist agree that at least some elements, and maybe people too(aDna will tell us), came in during the Villanovan period from the central european Urnfield culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Does anybody know which version of the ISOGG tree they used. I see a few R1b's from EBA Sicily, but they didn't specify any SNPs.
    Normally it's ISOGG 2016

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  10. #26
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    Z196+ could be indicative of arriving from the Iberian peninsula, especially since it peaks in eastern Iberia rather than western. However it's not always that simple, since downstream branches are rich all along the southern coasts of France, and several downstream branches of Z220 are quite rare in Spain such as Z220>Z295>CTS4065 and Z220>S21184, and are far more frequent in west-central Europe, and even Z196 covers much of the same territory. This could indicate an early reflux back to northern Europe in the MLBA when Z220 or Z196 was in its infancy.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    I agree that its most likely that J2b-L283 came to Sardinia from the Italian peninsula.
    Although the etruscans were not invaders from the aegean as far as i know. They most likely developed in situ during the Villanovan period.
    But of course the Villanovan period was not static, so you could be right that people from the aegean settled there during the etruscan ethnogenesis. But most archaeologist agree that at least some elements, and maybe people too(aDna will tell us), came in during the Villanovan period from the central european Urnfield culture.
    The Aegean origin of the Etruscans is backed by linguistic analysis, read this https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....truscans/page4 Agamemnon makes some pretty convincing arguments towards the intrusive nature of Etruscan in Italy and it's Aegean origin.
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  14. #28
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    I'm on the road at the moment so writing this from my phone.... But exciting stuff !! Also, seems like a death blow to the proponents that Sicilians resembled Aegeans before the IA.
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    Honestly to me it looks like the ancient Sicilian samples plot between Minoans and ancient Sardinians. While some Steppe ancestry may have arrived from Iberia, I do not think it was the majority of the ancestry of the ancient peoples, and the Iberian component was a minor one among ancient Sicilians.

    The Sicilian Bell Beaker drifting sharply toward West Asia suggests that West Asian component is very ancient.

    But if the Iberian is actually real and was widely present, then how should we interpret all these Sicilians who come up on calculators as Lebanese with a secondary Iberian component?

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    PS: What is the Phoenician’s Y-DNA haplogroup?
    The Phoenician is a She

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    231 During the Iron Age, Phoenician colonies were established in the Balearic islands. The Ibiza
    Phoenician individual published in 50 232 is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze
    233 Age individuals from the Balaeric islands newly reported in this study, and indeed we find that she
    234 can not be modeled even with our least parsimonious model of 4 distal sources. However, when we
    235 add in a North African source of ancestry, we can fit her as a two-way mix of 18.8 ± 7.9%
    236 Anatolia_Neolithic and 81.2 ± 7.9% Morocco_LN ancestry (p=0.141) (Supplementary Materials). We
    237 also can fit the Ibiza Phoenician as two-way mixture of a variety of groups closer to her in time one
    238 of which is always Morocco_LN. While several of these models include a Balaeric Island Bronze Age
    239 source, we cannot rule out the possibility that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no local Balaeric
    240 ancestry at all. Specifically, we find that we can fit her with models that do not have a Balaeric
    241 source and that instead have Balaeric Bronze Age individuals in the outgroups (e.g. (e.g. 17.1 ±
    242 3.5% France_Bell_Beaker and 82.9 ± 3.5% Morocco_LN, p=0.869) (Supplementary Table 11).


    is this the same Phoenician in the PCA and ADMIXTURE ? doesn't seem very North African to me, rather East Med with obvious Iran_N ancestry.
    This is not the first time qpAdm contradicts itself and other methods like ADMIXTURE, PCA, or qpGraph

    I remember the Levant_ChL not requiring any Anatolian_N ancestry in ADMIXTURE and PCA (and Global25 nMonte), but does so in qpAdm, Anatolian_N was modeled in Lazaridis(2016) as almost 1/3 Iran_N, but doesn't need any in other methods, and has also been modeled as Levant_N and WHG.

    the proportions it produces are also inconsistent, an example from the Dzudzuana paper:

    -Natufian was modeled by qpAdm as 86.3% Dzudzuana + 13.7% Taforalt, this contradicts another model where Natufians are 88.8% Dzudzuana + 11.2% Mbuti (representing deep ancestry). Taforalt admixture was inferred to be around 27% by qpGraph, this would reasonably produce around 1/10 deep ancestry in Natufians as predicted by qpAdm, since Taforalt is around 40% deep on top of what is given by Dzudzuana.
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