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Thread: How J-M267 ended up in Portugal?

  1. #1
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    J-Z27670 > BY58783

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    How J-M267 ended up in Portugal?

    Hi there again!

    Im Portuguese. Born and raised here like my father, like my grandfather, like my great grandfather etc.

    Yseq tells me im J-M267. I ordered a Y37 test 2 days ago from FTDNA. After that i will probably update to Y67 or do the M267v3 SNP from them.

    Ive been reading a lot but i cant find a concrete answer as to how my father line ended up here.

    My ancestor probably ended up here some time between the chalcolithic and the bronze age.

    Jews and gypsies carry (for the most part) haplogroup J2.

    I do not think my ancestor was arab because of the reconquista but its a possibility (ive got 6% north african ancestry).

    FTDNA tells me that im:
    47% Iberian
    29% Irish/English
    17% Southeast european
    6% North african

    The Irish/english part is a real surprise to me and my family. According to this https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/

    im more Irish/English (14.5 times) than the average Iberian. Can this be a hint?

    What tribes entered Iberia from the north?
    Last edited by lppt; 03-23-2019 at 11:20 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Don't pay too much attention to results from comercial tests when they vary wildly. I suggest you upload your rawdata to Gedmatch and compare your Eurogenes K13 and K15 results to that of other Portuguese, that way you'll have a standardized way to compare them. Although yes, you aer very west Euro shifted - you should research your geneaology because you might have a foreign ancestor. Maybe.

    Also keep in mind that the first J2-M267 man who entered Iberia likely gave you no DNA at all besides the Y chromossome. Just because you have a certain yDNA doesn't mean your results will be shifted in his ethnic origin direction.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

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  5. #3
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    Yes i know that. I just want to find who he was. How did he got here. Was he a slave? A member from some tribe? A pastor? A hunter? If i was R1b, i probably would not be as curious as im right now but being J1 as it only represents 2% of the portuguese population, got me thinking a lot!
    Last edited by lppt; 03-23-2019 at 03:02 PM.

  6. #4
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    We have different types of J1-M267 in Portugal. We can observe different origins. We have the J1-FGC6064<FGC6035 Iranian type with a cluster expanding in the Reconquista from the North to the South, Cristãos Velhos, possible origin with the Alans in the fall of Roman Gallaecia and Lusitania. We have types of J1 with the Cohen Match, possible origin with the Jewish movements and Cristãos Novos. We have types of J1- FGC2, possible origins with the Arab tribes and Islamic movements. We have J1 types associated with Eastern Mediterranean movements probably associated with the Phoenicians. We can observe several other types of Portuguese J1 haplotypes still being investigated.
    We can find the type of J1-M267 with at least 12 STR markers or the position of major J1 SNPs, so we can try to find the J1 group and possible origin.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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    All depends on the clade. Most J1 in Portugal from my knowledge was spread by Semitic speakers, mainly Phoenicians, Arabs and Jews. If you belong to a subgroup of J-YSC234 then it is most likely your paternal ancestor spoke one of those Semitic languages. I know that there is some Portuguese J1 that belongs to the FGC6064>FGC6035 branch, this seems to be connected to the Caucasus-Iran area and it's possible that it could've spread with Iranic speakers into Europe. I know that it has been connected to Alans. There are also rarer J1 clades found in Europe that show an expansion during the Neolithic or even Mesolithic.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  10. #6
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    This will really depend on the branch you carry, it might also depend on the region of Portugal your paternal ancestors inhabited. Like RCO said, there's an entire cluster under M365.1 which is made up of Portuguese individuals, there's also an Iranian sample from Mazandaran province under M365.1, this branch of J1 is a relatively basal one that seems to have stayed put around the Caspian sea, it easily could've arrived with the Iberian Alans.

    Still, this is a rare branch. The odds are more in favour of you carrying a branch of J1-L862, a marker that is quite likely to have been present amongst the earliest Semitic-speaking groups in the southernmost parts of the Levant (the Proto-Semites). Here too, the branch and/or specific subclade you carry should enable us to tell where and possibly when your paternal ancestors arrived in Iberia, there are numerous contenders, starting with the Phoenicians who settled along the coast of modern-day Algarve.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-23-2019 at 05:50 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by lppt View Post
    Hi there again!

    Im Portuguese. Born and raised here like my father, like my grandfather, like my great grandfather etc.

    Yseq tells me im J-M267. I ordered a Y37 test 2 days ago from FTDNA. After that i will probably update to Y67 or do the M267v3 SNP from them.

    Ive been reading a lot but i cant find a concrete answer as to how my father line ended up here.

    My ancestor probably ended up here some time between the chalcolithic and the bronze age.

    Jews and gypsies carry (for the most part) haplogroup J2.

    I do not think my ancestor was arab because of the reconquista but its a possibility (ive got 6% north african ancestry).

    FTDNA tells me that im:
    47% Iberian
    29% Irish/English
    17% Southeast european
    6% North african

    The Irish/english part is a real surprise to me and my family. According to this https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/

    im more Irish/English (14.5 times) than the average Iberian. Can this be a hint?

    What tribes entered Iberia from the north?
    That is a broad and rather inaccurate statement about ''Jews'' and ''Gypsies'' carrying J2 for the most part. J2 is present in many more ethnic and cultural groups other than just ''Jews'' and ''Gypsies''. Jews have a lot of J1 as well plus E1b1b, G2, R1a and more. The Roma (Gypsies) also carry a lot of H with J2 and other haplogroups such as I also being present.
    Last edited by J Man; 03-23-2019 at 06:04 PM.

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppt View Post
    Yes i know that. I just want to find who he was. How did he got here. Was he a slave? A member from some tribe? A pastor? A hunter? If i was R1b, i probably would not be as curious as im right now but being J1 as it only represents 2% of the portuguese population, got me thinking a lot!
    The only thing you have in common with the first man on your patrilineal line to enter Portugal is the Y chromosome. Your aDNA is a product of all of your ancestors. I believe you have almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived 10 generations before you.

    Assuming 25-30 years per generation, that would correspond to having almost no common aDNA with an ancestor who lived 250-300 years ago.

    This link is very good for explaining this in further detail: https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-mu...ular-ancestor/

    For example, if you come under J-FGC6035 (the branch of J-M365 that all Portuguese samples on YFull come under), then your paternal ancestor who entered Portugal would've lived around 1250 years ago at the latest. He would be way too far for you to have common aDNA with him, but the good thing with Y chromosomes is that they can't mix with other Y chromosomes as almost 100% of people don't have more than one Y chromosome. Because of this, your Y-DNA remains mostly unchanged over many generations, with the only changes being due to mutations, as mixing with other Y chromosomes is impossible as Y chromosomes are always isolated.

    I know exactly what you mean. You're exactly where I was nearly a year ago! People like me who come under R2a-M124 (L295-) only account for about 2.28% of men in our group by my estimates. If I had a common subclade for my group like L1a2-M357 or R1a1a1-M417 (63.82% of men in our group combined), then I wouldn't have put anywhere near the amount of effort into Y-DNA testing as I currently have. The problem with subclades around mine is that they're generally rare, with few confirmed South Asian samples on YFull and even less South Asian samples on FTDNA. At first, my Y-DNA frustrated me, but gradually, I came to love how unique it was. The rarity that was once an annoyance became quite a charm to me.
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 03-23-2019 at 08:15 PM.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-M479 > M124 > V1180 > SK2142 > Y1379 > Y1383 > Y154920 (xZ6135) - M5a1a-G9064A (185G)
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-M343 > M269 > Z2103 > Z2109 > Y14416 > Y35099 > Y84821 - U7a3a-A9852G > G6150A > C15433T
    * MGMs MGF: R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    The only thing you have in common with the first man on your patrilineal line to enter Portugal is the Y chromosome. Your aDNA is a product of all of your ancestors. I believe you have almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived 10 generations before you..
    Yes but this "only thing" (the Y chromosome) they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important while they often do not really care of the other lines (autosomal dna) in fact. I guess this is not the case in India but this is the case for example in many Mediterranean ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers, Turks etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number of posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.
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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by E_M81_I3A View Post
    Yes but this "only thing" they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important (and do not really care of their autosomal Dna in fact). This is not the case in India for example but this is the case in some Mediterranean ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.
    I never said anywhere that it wasn't important. I'm not sure if you think I implied this or not, but nowhere in my post did I downplay the importance of Y-DNA in any way at all. If anything, I briefly mentioned the fact that Y-DNA stays relatively unchanged through consecutive generations unlike aDNA, as well as mention the high amount of effort into my own Y-DNA, which wouldn't make any sense if I didn't think Y-DNA was not important. Again, I'm not sure if you thought that I was saying that Y-DNA is important or not, but your post did come across like that, at least to me.

    I completely agree that Y-DNA is important, specifically because of its non-recombinant nature and it's link to patrilineal lineage. The latter is mainly important in Mediterranean groups who place very strong importance on patrilineal descent from a specific common ancestor for various reasons. Even in groups in India that don't claim descent from a specific person, proportions of Y-DNA as well as what subclades are present can give a very good idea of how the group originated. This principle applies to mtDNA too.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-M479 > M124 > V1180 > SK2142 > Y1379 > Y1383 > Y154920 (xZ6135) - M5a1a-G9064A (185G)
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-M343 > M269 > Z2103 > Z2109 > Y14416 > Y35099 > Y84821 - U7a3a-A9852G > G6150A > C15433T
    * MGMs MGF: R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

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