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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I have no numbers for Bavaria, Switzerland and Austria, do you have a source? for Czech republic I find 0-4.9%.
    Czechs:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    Austrians:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Salzburg and Upper Austria can be considered close to Bavaria and I saw similar numbers suggested for Southern Germany. For South Western Germany as well and the FTDNA testers seem to show a strong trend, with clusters in Baden-Württemberg, but unfortunately only a few did NGS testing. The same applies to Swiss Germans.

    It is higher though in some neighbouring countries: Hungaria: 7.5-9.4%, Slovakia 8.3%. Slovenia only has 2.7-2.9%, but I guess that's due to the very high replacement by Slavs there.
    Slovenians are the most Slavic Southern Slavs and closest to Western Slavs. Before the Bavarian colonisation, we can assume there was a continuous Slavic settlement in the region. What's interesting is that in Austria you don't just find E-V13, but a whole variety of E-haplotypes. It really shows that E-V13 was just the most successful in the region, but not alone. If we assume that the original Germanics had a much lower number of E-V13 carriers, even though I would assume a presence, this makes the Czech-Austrian-Hungarian sphere even more E1b heavy for Roman times.

    I know V13 on Sicily is quite diverse, but it's hard to say wether more or less diverse than in Central-Europe. It would be helpful if we had more downstream results.
    Like always

    One thing I'm been waiting for a long time is the Y-results of the Sarno-study on 511 Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Balkans people. They were tested with the Geno chip which is not ideal, but at least the last version of that chip covered some important V13 branches. It could help clarify some issues. The autosomal data was published in 2017. I asked the author at the time about the Y data availability since I know the chip covers it, but she said it would not be made public until she finished a publication on it. I have asked from time to time about the progress on that study, but I get no replies (I just mailed a co-author to see if I get a reply from him :-)).
    Well, that would be great, but 2017? That's some time which went by...I hope they didn't drop the project altogether and it never gets published. Sounds like that. But I hope you get an answer, keep me posted.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-30-2020 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Slovenians are the most Slavic Southern Slavs and closest to Western Slavs. Before the Bavarian colonisation, we can assume there was a continuous Slavic settlement in the region. What's interesting is that in Austria you don't just find E-V13, but a whole variety of E-haplotypes. It really shows that E-V13 was just the most successful in the region, but not alone. If we assume that the original Germanics had a much lower number of E-V13 carriers, even though I would assume a presence, this makes the Czech-Austrian-Hungarian sphere even more E1b heavy for Roman times.
    We should not forget R-P312 had probably been quite frequent in this region. I haven't compared the data recently, but R-P312 should've been more frequent than E-V13.

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    You linked the same thread twice, I guess the info on Austrians is in another thread? Thanks for the numbers on Czechs. It lacks a bit of resolution, but if E is at 7% I would estimate V13 at 3-6%, roughly in line with the numbers from scientific studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    You linked the same thread twice, I guess the info on Austrians is in another thread? Thanks for the numbers on Czechs. It lacks a bit of resolution, but if E is at 7% I would estimate V13 at 3-6%, roughly in line with the numbers from scientific studies.
    Yes, about 5 I'd say, if it has the same ratio as in Austria.

    For Austria: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    We should not forget R-P312 had probably been quite frequent in this region. I haven't compared the data recently, but R-P312 should've been more frequent than E-V13.
    Unfortunately, the subclades of R1b were not mentioned in the thread for all regions, but even for Reutte/Tyrol, where it was made by the poster, in which we would assume a higher survival rate of local R1b vs. Germanic, R-U106 is in comparison quite dominant:
    R1b R-M173 1 0.38%
    R1b R-U106 54 20.69%
    R1b R-M269 35 13.41%
    R1b R-U152 32 12.26%
    R1b 1 0.38%
    East Tyrol is probably somewhat more Slavic influenced:
    R1b R-U106/S21 51 18.89%
    R1b R-L23/S141* 5 1.85%
    R1b R-M412/S167* 13 4.81%
    R1b R-U152/S28 34 12.59%
    R1b R-L11/S127* 2 0.74%
    R1b R-S116* 8 2.96%
    R1b M73 1 0.37%
    My assumption is also that a lot of the other R1b came in with Bavarian-Frankish settlements, from theri core regions. But it's being said especially for Bohemia, were pre-Germanic R1b might have had a higher survival rate than in Austria if I remember correctly.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-30-2020 at 12:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Well, the Thracians and the Greeks were two fundamentally different people, with different languages and different lifestyles. If they were genetically similar, that would probably mean a shared substratum, a population already living in the Balkans that would mix with a new migrant population that would give birth to the Thracians. And that new population was probably the one that was rich with E-V13.

    The ancient Macedonian were probably people coming from the same Indo-European branch as the Greeks. In that sense the linguist Vladimir Georgiev was probably right and in that family we can also include Phrygian. So to simplify things, English and German are both Germanic languages but English is not a German dialect, right?

    Couple that with the fundamentally different lifestyles, state organization and many other things among whom the most important are some different phonological developments in their language as explained by Georgiev, you get the point why the ancient Macedonians weren't ordinary Greeks, however a very close kin to ancient Greeks.

    Today's Greek is the only descendant of that supposed Greek-Macedonian-Phrygian Indo-European branch.
    So you mean that it was the Proto-Thracians who were rich in E-V13 while Graeco-Phrygians were of different origin not related to Urnfield culture people. This explains why most of E-V13 clades in modern Greece are considered of Balkan origin. However I find possible that few E-V13 clades have existed in ancient Greece as well even as a founder effect.

    As for ancient Macedonian ethnic identity there are opposing views. In my opinion things get more complicated because even if they were a separate branch of the Graeco-Phrygians they became (relatively early) part of the ancient Greek world. I have read sources that support both scenarios. This is what I was meaning above, I think we need more data to make a safe conlcusion if they were proper ancient Greeks or a close related but distinct people ( I had read somewhere the term "semi-Greeks"!).
    Last edited by xripkan; 11-30-2020 at 04:53 PM.
    Distance: 2.2672% / 0.02267223
    Target: Christos_scaled
    78.1 update_Peloponnese(Lakonia+Arkadia+older academic samples)
    21.9 Greek_Thessaly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    My assumption is also that a lot of the other R1b came in with Bavarian-Frankish settlements, from theri core regions. But it's being said especially for Bohemia, were pre-Germanic R1b might have had a higher survival rate than in Austria if I remember correctly.
    I apologize but I really can't remember my source for Hungary since my following point regarding R-P312 is based on my recollection of Hungary data.
    The thing if we focus on R1a and R1b in Hungary, unlike one may expect when starting from Southeast R1a increases towards Northwest. Similarly R1b is higher in Eastern Hungary than in the Western Hungary.

    Reason for such distribution is arrival of Slavs through Moravian gate, which as a consequence had that the genetic picture was more changed in Western part of the Pannonian basin than in its Eastern part.
    This is also supported by data from Western Transylvania: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    My point is, if we want to understand how did Western part of the Pannonian basin look like before Slavs came, it may make most sense to make speculations based on frequencies from Eastern part of the Pannonian basin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I apologize but I really can't remember my source for Hungary since my following point regarding R-P312 is based on my recollection of Hungary data.
    The thing if we focus on R1a and R1b in Hungary, unlike one may expect when starting from Southeast R1a increases towards Northwest. Similarly R1b is higher in Eastern Hungary than in the Western Hungary.

    Reason for such distribution is arrival of Slavs through Moravian gate, which as a consequence had that the genetic picture was more changed in Western part of the Pannonian basin than in its Eastern part.
    This is also supported by data from Western Transylvania: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    My point is, if we want to understand how did Western part of the Pannonian basin look like before Slavs came, it may make most sense to make speculations based on frequencies from Eastern part of the Pannonian basin.
    The problem though is, that the Eastern part was even more subject to replacements and migrations. Probably the best way to evalute it is to subtract the more obvious Germanic and Slavic more recent incomers?

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  10. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    So you mean that it was the Proto-Thracians who were rich in E-V13 while Graeco-Phrygians were of different origin not related to Urnfield culture people. This explains why most of E-V13 clades in modern Greece are considered of Balkan origin. However I find possible that few E-V13 clades have existed in ancient Greece as well even as a founder effect.

    As for ancient Macedonian ethnic identity there are opposing views. In my opinion things get more complicated because even if they were a separate branch of the Graeco-Phrygians they became (relatively early) part of the ancient Greek world. I have read sources that support both scenarios. This is what I was meaning above, I think we need more data to make a safe conlcusion if they were proper ancient Greeks or a close related but distinct people ( I had read somewhere the term "semi-Greeks"!).
    Ancient Macedonians were the very Barbarian version of Doric-northwest Greek speaking world. Genetically they would have been as You said between Bulgaria IA and The samples We got from Myceneans, so in Some way mostly EEF. The steppe-Iran N/CHG ratios would be a secondary issue. For attic-ionic Greeks everyone who did not belonged in this branch It was a Barbarian. Now what lineages they belonged to, thats a Hard thing to discuss here. Sadly, The banana republic that we live, does not have The money and power(or Even interestet I would say) for researches and issues related With genetics and archeology. We are going to discuss this subject for the next 10-15 years at least.

  11. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I apologize but I really can't remember my source for Hungary since my following point regarding R-P312 is based on my recollection of Hungary data.
    The thing if we focus on R1a and R1b in Hungary, unlike one may expect when starting from Southeast R1a increases towards Northwest. Similarly R1b is higher in Eastern Hungary than in the Western Hungary.

    Reason for such distribution is arrival of Slavs through Moravian gate, which as a consequence had that the genetic picture was more changed in Western part of the Pannonian basin than in its Eastern part.
    This is also supported by data from Western Transylvania: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    My point is, if we want to understand how did Western part of the Pannonian basin look like before Slavs came, it may make most sense to make speculations based on frequencies from Eastern part of the Pannonian basin.
    Arrival of which "Slavs"? What time period and what new DNA you are suggesting has appeared ? Who were the local representatives then before these "new" people and do you think the oldest local toponyms support your theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    Arrival of which "Slavs"? What time period and what new DNA you are suggesting has appeared ? Who were the local representatives then before these "new" people and do you think the oldest local toponyms support your theory?

    See here

    Those Slavs brought predominantly, but not only, R1a (unlike Balkans where Slavs brought predominantly I-Y3120).

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