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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We also have some E-V13 in East Asia and with more Chinese testing, more will appear. I think a possible connection is what I would call "backflow to the steppe" from the Thracian - Iranian connection in particular. Like to the West, some experts and especially smiths, or any kind of people becoming integrated one way or another into a steppe tribe could have migrated with Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians etc. to different regions. Including Caucasian countries (Armenians), China and the Near East. One important group for the timing in the Near East might be the Kurds. I didn't look more carefully at their E-V13 clades, but they seem to have some. What's their position overall? On YFull there isn't too much about it.
    Regarding Kurds i don't know their subclades but logically speaking since Kurds during Middle Ages were mountainous and isolated people i don't think their E-V13 was from Roman or Byzantine time, it was rather Balkan to Anatolian migrants during Late Bronze Age, the likes of Phrygians/Mushki who attacked and destroyed Hittite Empire.

    Otherwise, all of this explanations by chance are becoming ridicilous when there is no facts of Y-DNA subclade correlation during historical times.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-03-2021 at 07:21 AM.

  2. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It's all speculation until we get actual aDNA research, but I would say R1b-Z2103. Autosomally, they definitely would have had more steppe ancestry than Mycenaeans and more contact with E-V13 groups. I see the difference between the two not so much as a "genetic distance", but as part of the inter-tribal struggle between different patrilocal groups which certainly involved E-V13 vs. E-V13 groups as well.

    It also explains quite well the high endurance of the Greek language in Greece. Small groups of migrants are always much more easily culturally integrated in any society and their descendants usually see the next group of migrants as foreigners and the cycle repeats itself (the same process has been happening in the USA for many centuries)
    It' a bit the same issue as with the original Greek-speakers, if they were R1b-Z2103, why do we see so little of it in Greece today? For Doric speakers it's even more puzzling, since they would have moved south not long before the Iron age. If they were predominantly Z2103 and had sufficient numbers to replace Mycenaean Greek by Doric Greek I would expect to see more Z2103 in adna from the classical age (admittedly we have very little of that) and today.
    It would seem either Greek speakers were already much more diverse before they arrived in Greece, maybe because of an intermediate stop in Bulgaria/NW Greece in the 3 millenium BC (in that case it's unlikely to have included V13), or else they formed only a small minority that was successful in transferring their language and culture to locals. If the second scenario turns out real, the Doric speakers would have included haplogroups, maybe also V13.

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  4. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    It' a bit the same issue as with the original Greek-speakers, if they were R1b-Z2103, why do we see so little of it in Greece today? For Doric speakers it's even more puzzling, since they would have moved south not long before the Iron age. If they were predominantly Z2103 and had sufficient numbers to replace Mycenaean Greek by Doric Greek I would expect to see more Z2103 in adna from the classical age (admittedly we have very little of that) and today.
    What classical age samples? Do you mean the Empuries2 from Spain? And what does Z2103 have to do with autosomals? Myceneans already have Steppe in their autosomals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    What classical age samples? Do you mean the Empuries2 from Spain? And what does Z2103 have to do with autosomals? Myceneans already have Steppe in their autosomals.
    How much of R1b in Greece is R1b-Z2103, i assume i t should be 10-15%, with the rest 3-5% being other subclades. I think that's enough for language switch. All cosmopolitan civilizations are more varied in Y-DNA.

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  7. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We also have some E-V13 in East Asia and with more Chinese testing, more will appear. I think a possible connection is what I would call "backflow to the steppe" from the Thracian - Iranian connection in particular. Like to the West, some experts and especially smiths, or any kind of people becoming integrated one way or another into a steppe tribe could have migrated with Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians etc. to different regions. Including Caucasian countries (Armenians), China and the Near East. One important group for the timing in the Near East might be the Kurds. I didn't look more carefully at their E-V13 clades, but they seem to have some. What's their position overall? On YFull there isn't too much about it.
    Despite the claims that V13 is relatively high in Kurds, we have very little samples to back this up. As far as I know two of our members, who form a cluster together, are from Kurdistan. They tested CTS5856* with the V13 SNP pack. Evidently many more branches are known today than are tested in the pack, and it's result's for some SNP's were not always a 100% reliable. But it seems probable they belong to a basal clade. I have tried to get them to do a Big Y many times, but no success. For some of our Druze members I've seen claims that they would have Kurdish roots, these Druze are mostly part of BY5022.
    We also have an Assyrian from Iraq who tested Z5016* in the pack, he probably is also part of a more basal clade.

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  9. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    What classical age samples? Do you mean the Empuries2 from Spain?
    Yes, and as I said we have very little of it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    And what does Z2103 have to do with autosomals? Myceneans already have Steppe in their autosomals.
    Yes they did. It also seems to fluctuate wildly which might seem to support the idea that the arriving Greeks were a small minority. I guess in the third millennium BC there would have been a strong correlation between having Z2103 and having Steppe DNA.

  10. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    This is the border of the eastern Roman Empire not of greece.
    Well what is modern Greece to you?

    Greeks are the descendants of the Roman Empire. Until recently their ethnonym was Roman/Rhōmaîoi and the Empire was called Basileía Rhōmaíōn or simply Romania.
    To be more precise, the Greeks are descendants of all those who lived in the Roman Empire where the Koine was lingua franca.

    You can see the similarities with the Romanians who in turn are descendants of those who lived in the Roman Empire of the Balkans where Latin was spoken.

    In terms of languages today, the Greeks and the Romanians are the real descendants of the Romans in the Balkans before the 6-th century AD when the defensive limes collapsed and the only Roman centers of power to survive were those where Koine was spoken.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  12. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    How much of R1b in Greece is R1b-Z2103, i assume i t should be 10-15%, with the rest 3-5% being other subclades. I think that's enough for language switch. All cosmopolitan civilizations are more varied in Y-DNA.
    From the various y-dna studies on Greeks I've seen R1b seems to vary between 10-15%.
    Now there are two Greek y-dna projects on FTFNA, one seems active and the other seems abounded:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    The first one has a decent number of members and with a quick look you can see that R-Z2103 and R-L51 are pretty equally represented.
    R-Z2103 might be slightly more represented but that's because there are decent numbers of R-Z2705 carriers which doesn't seem to be a proto-Greek isn't it?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  14. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Despite the claims that V13 is relatively high in Kurds, we have very little samples to back this up. As far as I know two of our members, who form a cluster together, are from Kurdistan. They tested CTS5856* with the V13 SNP pack. Evidently many more branches are known today than are tested in the pack, and it's result's for some SNP's were not always a 100% reliable. But it seems probable they belong to a basal clade. I have tried to get them to do a Big Y many times, but no success. For some of our Druze members I've seen claims that they would have Kurdish roots, these Druze are mostly part of BY5022.
    We also have an Assyrian from Iraq who tested Z5016* in the pack, he probably is also part of a more basal clade.
    Some Near Eastern subclades look clearly Hellenistic to me, but considering how fairly widespread E-V13 is and was, I think there were more pathways into the region. However, the Kurdish ones could prove to be more ancient and interesting, because they could have entered with early Iranian speakers, regardless of how low their numbers are. But once more, without the full test, we can't know where they being placed.

  15. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    From the various y-dna studies on Greeks I've seen R1b seems to vary between 10-15%.
    Now there are two Greek y-dna projects on FTFNA, one seems active and the other seems abounded:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    The first one has a decent number of members and with a quick look you can see that R-Z2103 and R-L51 are pretty equally represented.
    R-Z2103 might be slightly more represented but that's because there are decent numbers of R-Z2705 carriers which doesn't seem to be a proto-Greek isn't it?
    I am not sure, it looks like R-Z2705 is Proto-Albanian marker, since this lineage boomed after Justinian Pandemics initially within Albanian population after a great vacuum of power.

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