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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Some Near Eastern subclades look clearly Hellenistic to me, but considering how fairly widespread E-V13 is and was, I think there were more pathways into the region. However, the Kurdish ones could prove to be more ancient and interesting, because they could have entered with early Iranian speakers, regardless of how low their numbers are. But once more, without the full test, we can't know where they being placed.
    Early Iranian speakers could explain a bit, although I would assume they would have lived far more east than V13 carriers. Other possibilities are early Armenian speakers, who probably lived west of the early Iranian speakers and would have crossed the Caucasus before the Iron age, and nomadic tribes from the early Iron age that also moved south across the Caucasus.

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  3. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    and nomadic tribes from the early Iron age that also moved south across the Caucasus.
    Prime candidates would be the groups subsumed under "Cimmerian" and those have, without a doubt, a Thracian connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Prime candidates would be the groups subsumed under "Cimmerian" and those have, without a doubt, a Thracian connection.
    Tbh I'm not too sure about that...
    Clades like these can't be explained with the nomads who lived on the eastern fringes of Europe:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/ TMRCA 2900 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Both their distribution but age as well gives me impression of a Roman involvement in the spread rather than steppe nomads.
    Also we have to keep in mind that even those Arabs who don't have European matches later than EIA might not necessarily mean that they have older presence in the Middle East. We must keep in mind that the Balkans in particular are not well tested but also that many lineages have died out, especially during the turbulent periods of the late antiquity and early Medieval so a connection like this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y88062/ TMRCA = 4100 ybp, might actually reflect a historical migration from the Balkans during the Roman period.
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-03-2021 at 11:26 AM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  6. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Tbh I'm not too sure about that...
    Clades like these can't be explained with the nomads who lived on the eastern fringes of Europe:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/ TMRCA 2900 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Both their distribution but age as well gives me impression of a Roman involvement in the spread rather than steppe nomads.
    Also we have to keep in mind that even those Arabs who don't have European matches later than EIA might not necessarily mean that they have older presence in the Middle East. We must keep in mind that the Balkans in particular are not well tested but also that many lineages have died out, especially during the turbulent periods of the late antiquity and early Medieval so a connection like this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y88062/ TMRCA = 4100 ybp, might actually reflect a historical migration from the Balkans during the Roman period.
    Especially https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ might be rather Hellenistic-Roman indeed, there are plenty of opportunities for such a spread, we just have to look at all the Hellenistic empires and their settlements in the wider region.

    I just wanted to stress that I think it might have come in at different times, under different circumstances. Just like other European haplotypes which spread in the region as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Especially https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ might be rather Hellenistic-Roman indeed, there are plenty of opportunities for such a spread, we just have to look at all the Hellenistic empires and their settlements in the wider region.

    I just wanted to stress that I think it might have come in at different times, under different circumstances. Just like other European haplotypes which spread in the region as well.
    Yes, it does look so.
    And lineages like these are particularly important to make guesses when did most of the E-V13 lineages ended up in the Arab peninsula. Because I believe the group of people that brought BY5786 there also brought plenty of other E-V13 lineages as well. The bulk actually might have arrived exactly during the Hellenistic/Roman period. And the European lineages we see today in the middle east might reflect what was once in the Balkans and other European parts of the Roman Empire.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  9. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Tbh I'm not too sure about that...
    Clades like these can't be explained with the nomads who lived on the eastern fringes of Europe:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/ TMRCA 2900 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Both their distribution but age as well gives me impression of a Roman involvement in the spread rather than steppe nomads.
    Also we have to keep in mind that even those Arabs who don't have European matches later than EIA might not necessarily mean that they have older presence in the Middle East. We must keep in mind that the Balkans in particular are not well tested but also that many lineages have died out, especially during the turbulent periods of the late antiquity and early Medieval so a connection like this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y88062/ TMRCA = 4100 ybp, might actually reflect a historical migration from the Balkans during the Roman period.
    I thought about that too, but that implies magically older E-V13 clades died out and the younger subclades survived which IMO does not explain at all.

  10. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yes, it does look so.
    And lineages like these are particularly important to make guesses when did most of the E-V13 lineages ended up in the Arab peninsula. Because I believe the group of people that brought BY5786 there also brought plenty of other E-V13 lineages as well. The bulk actually might have arrived exactly during the Hellenistic/Roman period. And the European lineages we see today in the middle east might reflect what was once in the Balkans and other European parts of the Roman Empire.
    I totally agree with your general conclusion, but I don't think such lineages in anywhere help us a lot for Europe, because most, and especially E-BY5786 looks like a radical founder effect. Probably some Hellenistic warlord or the like founded a local clan which managed to survive all changes and multiplied by a lot. Its also interesting in this respect, that the more basal clade being found in Iraq, which was surely more affected by Hellenistic Europeans than UA. Considering how bad the testing for Iraq is, this might mean it became already strong in Mesopotamia, around Babylon in the Hellenistic period and later expanded successfully Southward into coastal Arab communities and from there into the whole Eastern Arabian sphere. But all of this could have started with a single individual coming under Greek rule.

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  12. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Regarding Kurds i don't know their subclades but logically speaking since Kurds during Middle Ages were mountainous and isolated people i don't think their E-V13 was from Roman or Byzantine time, it was rather Balkan to Anatolian migrants during Late Bronze Age, the likes of Phrygians/Mushki who attacked and destroyed Hittite Empire.

    Otherwise, all of this explanations by chance are becoming ridicilous when there is no facts of Y-DNA subclade correlation during historical times.
    The preception that Kurds have high V13 is based on some scientific studies that show elevated percentages of E1b1b among them. I have looked at a study a while ago that had about 100 Kurdish samples from Iraq. All of their E1b1b looked like V22, M34 etc. Didn't even see one V13.
    Last edited by broder; 03-03-2021 at 02:14 PM.

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  14. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Tbh I'm not too sure about that...
    Clades like these can't be explained with the nomads who lived on the eastern fringes of Europe:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/ TMRCA 2900 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/ TMRCA 2500 ybp

    Both their distribution but age as well gives me impression of a Roman involvement in the spread rather than steppe nomads.
    Also we have to keep in mind that even those Arabs who don't have European matches later than EIA might not necessarily mean that they have older presence in the Middle East. We must keep in mind that the Balkans in particular are not well tested but also that many lineages have died out, especially during the turbulent periods of the late antiquity and early Medieval so a connection like this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y88062/ TMRCA = 4100 ybp, might actually reflect a historical migration from the Balkans during the Roman period.
    Exactly. Once Balkans is better profiled those high tmrca's will diminish, at least in most cases. Unless some of those lineages have gone extinct as you suggested.
    Last edited by broder; 03-03-2021 at 03:10 PM.

  15. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    The preception that Kurds have high V13 is based on some scientific studies that show E1b1b elevated percentages among them. I have looked at study a while ago that had about 100 Kurdish samples from Iraq. All of their E1b1b looked like V22, M34 etc. Didn't even see one V13.
    It should be ~3-5%. And probably the ones coming from around Turkey having more, a regional difference. I don't really think it's related to any Iranian population. I don't know their subclades, so i cannot say much. We have one Kurd around who is E-V13, but he doesn't seem to be active.

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