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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I think that is basically what is being argued, that V13 was not originally Greek, hence mostly absent in Greece before the Iron age, but that they mixed on the northern fringes and went southwards with Northwest-Greek tribes.

    If you believe V13 has nothing to do with ancient Greeks, how do you explain high V13 presence in Sicily and Southern Italy, but also on islands like Creta and Cyprus? You see this as a result of later migrations or by a different vector than Greek colonisation?
    The same wave hit the three groups at the same time during LBA: Proto-Greeks/Proto-Thracians/Proto-Illyrians, some more some less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I think that is basically what is being argued, that V13 was not originally Greek, hence mostly absent in Greece before the Iron age, but that they mixed on the northern fringes and went southwards with Northwest-Greek tribes.

    If you believe V13 has nothing to do with ancient Greeks, how do you explain high V13 presence in Sicily and Southern Italy, but also on islands like Creta and Cyprus? You see this as a result of later migrations or by a different vector than Greek colonisation?
    I believe that the Greek influence on South Italy is vastly exaggerated. Sure, the ancient Greeks did colonize some parts but they were mostly coastal because the ancient Greeks were mostly sea people, not much of inland dwellers. Of course, there were other people from the Balkans that also colonized parts of Italy such as the Lapygians. The problem is that unlike the Greeks, most people during those early times didn't have written history. But of course, that doesn't mean that the Greeks were gods that could easily overcome other people and impregnate women wherever they went.
    Another thing is that we don't know much what happened during the LBA-EIA transition in Europe but all evidence speaks of a massive turmoil and high scale migrations taking place possibly initiated by movements in Central Europe in connection with the Urnfield culture.. I would compare this to what happened during Early Medieval although not as documented as EM. In that context I agree that much of E-V13 is somehow connected with the Eastern Hallstatt zone. Now sporadically some movements directly from the Eastern Hallstatt could have brought E-V13 in South Italy, others might have arrived there earlier, probably with seafarers from the Cetina culture. What's interesting also is that some toponyms in South Italy have connection to some Dacian and Thraco-Illyrian tribes such as Apuli or Galabri.
    And others, I would say did arrive with the Romans which were known to transfer people from other parts of their Empire to another. Spartacus, the famous gladiator was a member of the Thracian tribe Maedi who lived nearby the river Strymon or modern Struma. So yeah, some came as slaves, others as soldiers and etc.
    The history of South Italy is complex and can't be explained just by ancient Greek colonization. At the and of the day South Italians speak Latin language, not Greek one, although with Greek influences of course.
    The presence of E-V13 on Crete is not significant. In fact, it's probably less than R1a going by some studies. Anyway, it can be explained fairly easily, people migrate. Otherwise how can we explain the presence of Balto-Slavic R1a and I-Y3120? It's mostly connected not with the older and Ancient history of Crete but with more recent one, that of the Roman Empire that would be known as Byzantine today. The other smaller islands are settled and resettled so many times during the history, especially from the mainland and from other bigger islands like Crete who served as reservoir.
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  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    In that context I agree that much of E-V13 is somehow connected with the Eastern Hallstatt zone. Now sporadically some movements directly from the Eastern Hallstatt could have brought E-V13 in South Italy, others might have arrived there earlier, probably with seafarers from the Cetina culture.
    I would disagree due to significant decline of E-V13 frequency in Central Italy.
    I support your early connection of Thracians with E-V13, but denying Greek contribution of E-V13 to South Italy is IMO not sensible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I would disagree due to significant decline of E-V13 frequency in Central Italy.
    I support your early connection of Thracians with E-V13, but denying Greek contribution of E-V13 to South Italy is IMO not sensible.
    What is that you disagree and can you show any figures about the numbers of E-V13 in South and Central Italy?
    I don't think I ever said some lineages of E-V13 couldn't have arrived with the Greeks. All I said is all other possibilities that E-V13 lineages could have arrived in South Italy.
    Or do you really think that most of it arrived with the ancient Greeks?
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  5. #215
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    The only reason Thracians received heavy E-V13 is because Thrace was a crossroad toward Anatolia were these Eastern Urnfielders were heading and consequently destroying Hittite Empire.

    Many of them settled and remained in Thrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    What is that you disagree and can you show any figures about the numbers of E-V13 in South and Central Italy?
    I disagree with both Eastern Hallstatt and Cetina as areas from which E-V13 came to South Italy. Both of these potential sources are contradicted with lower E-V13 in Central Italy. See here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05...different.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Or do you really think that most of it arrived with the ancient Greeks?
    I do think that most of E-V13 arrived to South Italy with ancient Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The only reason Thracians received heavy E-V13 is because Thrace was a crossroad toward Anatolia were these Eastern Urnfielders were heading and consequently destroying Hittite Empire.

    Many of them settled and remained in Thrace.
    I disagree with this too. If I correctly understood Riverman he argues for North to South route of E-V13. There is a number of his posts explaining this. I support such view in this case.

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    To be clear (if anyone is interested ), my view of expansion of E-BY3880 in Eastern Europe, Balkans and South Italy is rather simple. Though it should not mean it is shallow.
    So IMO expansion of E-BY3880 in the mentioned territories can mostly be connected with two ancient tribes, Thracians and Dorians. I know it looks primitive way of thinking but there are number of arguments which support it.

    Western Europe including Northern Italy is a different story. Eastern Hallstatt could indeed have significant role there.

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    So before Slavs came to Balkans, central Balkans was region inside the Balkans where frequency of E-V13 was peaking. It would be between the two red lines. When Slavs came they pushed E-V13 further Southwest, and that is why E-V13 is today high in region which corresponds to ancient Illyria.


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    Morava-Vardar valley is well known easiest route through the central Balkans. It is the case today, it was when Slavs came, it was when E-V13 was coming.

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