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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Indeed, that 174886 could possibly be BY6550 (his relative 388194 has more markers tested btw). The CTS5956* is also Sicilian, but it just shows you how all over the place V13 is. Maybe 174886 is BY6550, but so are Germans and Scottish and probably a Czech. Central Europe is still the most likely point to reach all those places, it seems to me.

    I would be more inclined to see this CTS5856* together with PH1246 appearing in southern Italy (and the FT7781 if he is indeed Sicilian, he is not in our project) as a result of something like Cetina, but I might be completely wrong.
    We should be careful about the modern distribution. Even from my wider relatives I know a lot of migrations and people ending up in different ethnicities on the long run.

  2. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Indeed, that 174886 could possibly be BY6550 (his relative 388194 has more markers tested btw). The CTS5956* is also Sicilian, but it just shows you how all over the place V13 is. Maybe 174886 is BY6550, but so are Germans and Scottish and probably a Czech. Central Europe is still the most likely point to reach all those places, it seems to me.

    I would be more inclined to see this CTS5856* together with PH1246 appearing in southern Italy (and the FT7781 if he is indeed Sicilian, he is not in our project) as a result of something like Cetina, but I might be completely wrong.
    That 388194 is "hidden". What does he have on DYF406S1, DYS568, DYS643 (if 111)?? You can send me in PM if not here.

    Let's take FT7781. I don't know where he is from but he is member of Sicilian project and has an Italian surname.
    But this clade has several clades, they all share just FT7781.
    - Ossetian cluster, their TMRCA is alot more than 600 ybp, because more distant members haven't done BigY yet.
    - Lybian
    - Brasilian cluster
    - Turkish Jew ERS1789480
    - Sicilian, he could still be related to the guy above

    How does this resemble C.Europe? Their TMRCA is around 4500 ybp or close to that.

    FT7781 is very reliably defined by dys393=12, and based on that we can say FT7781 is extremely rare or non-existent in Greeks. None of the 70+ E-V13 FTDNA Greeks belong to it.

    Only what I suggested can make it sensible. Early Cetina being part of the Eastern Balkan Ezero derived complex, where I see many lump Schneckenberg.

    The role Ezero connected Steppe element played in Cetina's ethnogenesis is undeniable. And looking at their Corded Ware pattern we see politically Cetina people were aligned with them.

    If these are some Anatolian derived group, it might fit into the Philistines. I said long ago your clade is very diverse in both Bulgaria and the Levant and the pre-Thracian name of the river Strymon was Palaistinos.

    We see already PF7563 has strong Sea-People links, M269 was found in Philistines. Not sure if they tested for Z2103, if yes these were PF7563. Philistine names that are of IE root are usually being connected to Anatolian group.

    If Thracian language is a recent arrival then these older branches without Carpathian links are probably not linked to it.

  3. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's exactly somewhere North Italy, Alps and Carpathian triangle where i envision it originates from. I may be wrong of course but it would be weird to be somewhere else considering the earlier splits.
    Look. I remember you saying that you doubt V13 has a more Northern origin point than S.Albania/Epirus.

    Well genetically Illyrians were pretty Northern, alot more Northern than Thracians and more Northern than Moldovan Getae.

    Yet becoming aware that J-L283 are ultra Illyrian, you embraced the C.Euro path so that V13 could be connected to C.Euro Urnfield complex that actually formed Illyrians allegedly.

    It didn't. Illyrians were an older people that successfully resisted Urnfield, and even managed to expand at their expense later in Iron Age.
    Urnfield people were not Illyrian, but proto-Latin, Venetic etc
    Urnfield people were mostly R-L51/R-U152
    Urnfield people judging by some Urnfield finds were autosomally Northwest Euro. It makes no sense for V13 to arrive en masse and yet arriving without such admixture.
    Rather all current aDNA finds imply E-V13 is connected with a more Southeastern profile, i.e. Thracian, Getae.
    Only Urnfield E-V13 can possibly connected to is Eastern Urnfield, and only clades such as CTS9320, FGC11450, L241.. L241 is somewhat younger though, and it is far more Balkan than the YFull's tree shows..

    Proto-Illyrians were J-L283 and they clustered with modern Northern Italians. Any other hg was a junior partner in Illyrian endeavor.

    I think that Southern Albanian Tumulii culture, of whom Messapians seem to descend, had a more Southern genetic profile, because significant part of it was formed by the Central Balkan migrants, pushed by the Urnfielders, and I believe these had a more Thracian-like autosomal profile and had plenty of E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Look. I remember you saying that you doubt V13 has a more Northern origin point than S.Albania/Epirus.

    Well genetically Illyrians were pretty Northern, alot more Northern than Thracians and more Northern than Moldovan Getae.

    Yet becoming aware that J-L283 are ultra Illyrian, you embraced the C.Euro path so that V13 could be connected to C.Euro Urnfield complex that actually formed Illyrians allegedly.

    It didn't. Illyrians were an older people that successfully resisted Urnfield, and even managed to expand at their expense later in Iron Age.
    Urnfield people were not Illyrian, but proto-Latin, Venetic etc
    Urnfield people were mostly R-L51/R-U152
    Urnfield people judging by some Urnfield finds were autosomally Northwest Euro. It makes no sense for V13 to arrive en masse and yet arriving without such admixture.
    Rather all current aDNA finds imply E-V13 is connected with a more Southeastern profile, i.e. Thracian, Getae.
    Only Urnfield E-V13 can possibly connected to is Eastern Urnfield, and only clades such as CTS9320, FGC11450, L241.. L241 is somewhat younger though, and it is far more Balkan than the YFull's tree shows..

    Proto-Illyrians were J-L283 and they clustered with modern Northern Italians. Any other hg was a junior partner in Illyrian endeavor.

    I think that Southern Albanian Tumulii culture, of whom Messapians seem to descend, had a more Southern genetic profile, because significant part of it was formed by the Central Balkan migrants, pushed by the Urnfielders, and I believe these had a more Thracian-like autosomal profile and had plenty of E-V13.
    I change my mind based on evidence. If new evidences prove you right, i will admit i was totally off. And yes, it looked to me unlikely that it has such northern origin but seeing the complete absence in Late Neolithic Bulgaria, complete absence in Trypillia (only one E-M78 lonely wolf) i support the more Northern/Central than Balkans origin. As for Illyrians, it was always the Illyrians who were connected with Eastern Urnfield and less Thracians.

    »THE PROTOURBAN ILLYRIANS IN THE LATE IRON AGE AND THEIR CONTACTS TO THE GREEK WORLD«

    Public Lecture: emer.O.Prof. Dr. Andreas Lippert (University of Vienna)
    8.11.2018, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien

    In the Southwest of the Balkans the first elements of the later Illyrian Culture turn up rather early. These are burial mounds with central graves, around which further graves of the wider familiy and adherents were placed. The burial custom of tumuli at the Adriatic coast is connected with the advance of steppe-populations from Southern Russia in Late Neolithic. At the same time some amount of nomadic life came into being.

    Already in the Early and so more in the Middle amd Late Bronze Aegean ceramics and weapons are imported and imitated. But there is also a strong influrence from the Danubian Urnfield culture. Characteristic for the Late Bronze Age are large hilltop-settlements with wall fortifications. Since that age there is a continuity of the indigene material culture in the Southern Adriatic areas and the new cultural unity has been called Mat-Glasinac-Culture in reference to the North-Albanian river Mat and the tableland of Glasinac in the Herzegovina. In the Early Iron Age (11th - 8th cent. B.C.) the contacts to Greece increase steadily and reach a high level at the end of the Middle Iron Age in the 7th cent. with numerous imports of fine ware, ornaments and offensive as well as defensive arms, just as swords, helmets and greaves.

    In the Late Iron Age (6th - 5th cent. B.C.), which is the protourban period of the Illyrians, Greek historians and geographs, just as Hekataios and Herodotos, describe for the first time the Illyrian tribes living in the nowadays countries of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo and Southern Bosnia. At the same time Greek colonies were founded at the Albanian coast entailing an intensive trade with the Illyrian hinterland. These intensive trade connections are most probably the reason for the emergence of distinct hierarchical structures in the Illyrian society. The ruling caste of the Illyrians evidently have their centers in small, well fortified hilltop-settlements, where also craftsmen and merchants have their forum. Trade amd business relations reach out now also to the North and to the Danube regions.

    In the middle of the 4th cent. B.C. the Southern Illyrians having adopted already much of Greek livestyle and urban civilisation founded large towns in the highlands behind the Adriatic coast. The Illyrian rulers are yet buried still in the traditional way in carefully built and furnished graves with rich adornments, arms, fine ceramics and metall ware. Sites of this kind are for example Belsh near Elbasan and Selca e Posthme just west of the Ohrid-Lake. In the 3rd and 2nd cent. B.C. not much is preserved from the old material culture of the Illyrians, only Illyrian prenames on tombstones in Albania or votiv-inscriptions at the sanctuary Grotta della Poesia in Lower Italy, near Otranto, written by Messapian sailors give witness of Illyrians, who now were extensively integrated in Greek and Roman culture.

    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/publi...roman-albania/
    As you can see, Illyrians were formed in Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age with an influx of Danubian Urnfielders mixing with previous populations, there were also some linguistic evidences based on personal names and river names connecting the Illyrians with Central Europe which was supported by Hammond and Gimbutas. It might be wrong, it might be true, but i lean on the second option. Actually originally, long time ago i thought IE Illyrians were some Western R1b subclades. I trust more Western archeologists than Balkan ones.

    As for J2b2, we have one Etruscan, several Nuragics non IE, 1 J2b2 from Middle Bronze Age, 1 from Maros. It doesn't look strictly IE to me, in fact J2b2 set aside from a subset of Northern Albanians is very rare among other populations, more like originally non-IE with some subclades becoming Indo-Europeanized somewhere in Northern Balkans.

    I even expect several E-V13 subclades to have spoken non IE language very late during Iron Age.
    Last edited by Hawk; 02-25-2021 at 07:22 PM.

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    Previously in the thread I have seen some connect the Dardani of present-day Kosovo and the adjacent regions with the Bronze Age Brnjica culture, a culture which had archaeological sites spread across north-eastern Kosovo and into south-eastern Serbia. However from my discussions with a user who is not as active anymore on the forum, who had looked at some of the more recent archaeological data from Kosovo, it seems as if there is more of an association with the wider Glasinac-Mati complex through the Drin variant of the culture.

    Associations with the Brnjica seem to be a little more outdated and primarily based on the works of Fanula Papazoglu (1978) and Alojz Benac (1950s-1960s). There has been an exponential increase in archaeological data and excavations in Kosovo since the beginning of the twenty-first century, with around 51 burials or sites being surveyed as of 2020. From my correspondences, 42 of the sites belong to tumuli burials with the remaining nine being non-tumuli burials. From the Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age onwards, the tumuli burials begin to be classified as belonging to the Drin variation of the Glasinac-Mati culture. The Drin variant seems to be an off-shoot of the Mati complex rather than the Glasinac one. Tumuli burials as a whole are concentrated in the western and central regions of the country. Whilst non-tumuli burials are to be found in the east and north-east.

    However, I know that it has been suggested that the Brnjica contributed to the non-Illyrian element that is particularly concentrated in the east of Dardanian territory. Which is plausible.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 02-25-2021 at 07:10 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  9. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I change my mind based on evidence. If new evidences prove you right, i will admit i was totally off. And yes, it looked to me unlikely that it has such northern origin but seeing the complete absence in Late Neolithic Bulgaria, complete absence in Trypillia (only one E-M78 lonely wolf) i support the more Northern/Central than Balkans origin. As for Illyrians, it was always the Illyrians who were connected with Eastern Urnfield and less Thracians.



    As you can see, Illyrians were formed in Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age with an influx of Danubian Urnfielders mixing with previous populations, there were also some linguistic evidences based on personal names and river names connecting the Illyrians with Central Europe which was supported by Hammond and Gimbutas. It might be wrong, it might be true, but i lean on the second option. Actually originally, long time ago i thought IE Illyrians were some Western R1b subclades. I trust more Western archeologists than Balkan ones.

    As for J2b2, we have one Etruscan, several Nuragics non IE, 1 J2b2 from Middle Bronze Age, 1 from Maros. It doesn't look strictly IE to me, in fact J2b2 set aside from a subset of Northern Albanians is very rare among other populations, more like originally non-IE with some subclades becoming Indo-Europeanized somewhere in Northern Balkans.

    I even expect several E-V13 subclades to have spoken non IE language very late during Iron Age.
    Do you have a full version of this paper/presentation for the link that you sent? Protourban Illyrians? I have seet it before but it only gives the summary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    Do you have a full version of this paper/presentation for the link that you sent? Protourban Illyrians? I have seet it before but it only gives the summary.
    No, i don't, but it looks like it's a public lecture. Maybe we can email emer.O.Prof. Dr. Andreas Lippert (University of Vienna).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    As for J2b2, we have one Etruscan, several Nuragics non IE, 1 J2b2 from Middle Bronze Age, 1 from Maros. It doesn't look strictly IE to me, in fact J2b2 set aside from a subset of Northern Albanians is very rare among other populations, more like originally non-IE with some subclades becoming Indo-Europeanized somewhere in Northern Balkans.
    There is also the basal J2b-L283* (Z627-) sample from a Bronze Age site located in the North Caucasian Russian republic of Kabardino-Balkaria which is dated back to ~1800 BCE, and so is the oldest L283+ sample after the Maros sample which is dated to 2100-1800 BCE.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Look. I remember you saying that you doubt V13 has a more Northern origin point than S.Albania/Epirus.

    Well genetically Illyrians were pretty Northern, alot more Northern than Thracians and more Northern than Moldovan Getae.

    Yet becoming aware that J-L283 are ultra Illyrian, you embraced the C.Euro path so that V13 could be connected to C.Euro Urnfield complex that actually formed Illyrians allegedly.

    It didn't. Illyrians were an older people that successfully resisted Urnfield, and even managed to expand at their expense later in Iron Age.
    Urnfield people were not Illyrian, but proto-Latin, Venetic etc
    Urnfield people were mostly R-L51/R-U152
    Urnfield people judging by some Urnfield finds were autosomally Northwest Euro. It makes no sense for V13 to arrive en masse and yet arriving without such admixture.
    Rather all current aDNA finds imply E-V13 is connected with a more Southeastern profile, i.e. Thracian, Getae.
    Only Urnfield E-V13 can possibly connected to is Eastern Urnfield, and only clades such as CTS9320, FGC11450, L241.. L241 is somewhat younger though, and it is far more Balkan than the YFull's tree shows..

    Proto-Illyrians were J-L283 and they clustered with modern Northern Italians. Any other hg was a junior partner in Illyrian endeavor.

    I think that Southern Albanian Tumulii culture, of whom Messapians seem to descend, had a more Southern genetic profile, because significant part of it was formed by the Central Balkan migrants, pushed by the Urnfielders, and I believe these had a more Thracian-like autosomal profile and had plenty of E-V13.
    János Harmatta placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] 1000 BC is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.[13]
    Halstatt culture is a mix of Celtic and Illyrian peoples


    Hallstatt culture. An archeologically defined culture of the Late Bronze Age and the early Iron Age (ca 10th–5th centuries BC). The name is derived from a burial ground discovered in 1846 near the town of Hallstatt in southwestern Austria, where objects characteristic of the period were first identified. The culture was spread throughout south-central Europe and has been identified with the Celts and Illyrians. These groups were engaged in agriculture, animal husbandry, ceramic production, and the mining of salt, copper, and iron. Their semi-fortified settlements consisted of surface and semi-pit dwellings.


    Hallstatt Culture

    the archaeological culture of the tribes of the southern part of Central Europe in the period of the Early Iron Age (approximately 900-400 B.C.).

    It is named after a burial ground situated near the city of Hallstatt in southwestern Austria. One may distinguish two basic regions where Hallstatt culture spread: an eastern region (present-day Austria, Yugoslavia, Albania, and parts of Czechoslovakia), which coincides with the territory of settlement of the ancient Illyrians, and a western region (the southern parts of the Federal Republic of Germany and of the German Democratic Republic and the Rhenish departments of France), where it is associated with Celtic tribes. Hallstatt culture is also known in the eastern parts of the Po River valley in Italy. In the Oder and Vistula basins, the culture of the late Lusatian tribes belongs to the epoch of Hallstatt culture. Special forms of burial rites are characteristic of each of these local types of Hallstatt culture.



    Hallstatt Culture.
    Whether lineally descended from it or not, the Hallstatt culture succeeds the bronze age of Central Europe; and, with Austria and South Germany as a centre, radi ates in several directions. Intercourse with the south was by this time active, and there was a close connection with the Bologna area, where early iron age finds are abundant and are grouped un der the name of Villanova (q.v.) (a suburb of Bologna). The con tact with Thrace and the Caucasus is not so clear as with Illyria and the neighbourhood of Venice or with Eastern Germany (the Lausitz or Lusatian area) ; but it was mainly westward that the new culture spread via Switzerland and the Vosges to Eastern France, and later to the Atlantic coast as well as to Spain and Britain. This last movement is attributed to the Celts, a mobile and a conquering people; but most authorities attribute the Hall statt culture of Central Europe to the Illyrians, who may have influenced the Germans on the north-east of what has been called the Celtic cradle. Hut-urns (sepulchral vessels of pottery made in the form of contemporary dwellings) are of frequent occur rence in Mecklenburg and near the mouth of the Vistula, and suggest some connection in the 7th century B.C. with Italy, though the type is also found from time to time in widely separated parts of South-eastern Europe, and in Italy (Alba Longa) is hardly later than 90o B.C.


    BTW......La Tene culture which came over 500 years after hallstatt culture does not have Illyrian, but is still celtic
    Last edited by vettor; 02-25-2021 at 09:32 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Previously in the thread I have seen some connect the Dardani of present-day Kosovo and the adjacent regions with the Bronze Age Brnjica culture, a culture which had archaeological sites spread across north-eastern Kosovo and into south-eastern Serbia. However from my discussions with a user who is not as active anymore on the forum, who had looked at some of the more recent archaeological data from Kosovo, it seems as if there is more of an association with the wider Glasinac-Mati complex through the Drin variant of the culture.

    Associations with the Brnjica seem to be a little more outdated and primarily based on the works of Fanula Papazoglu (1978) and Alojz Benac (1950s-1960s). There has been an exponential increase in archaeological data and excavations in Kosovo since the beginning of the twenty-first century, with around 51 burials or sites being surveyed as of 2020. From my correspondences, 42 of the sites belong to tumuli burials with the remaining nine being non-tumuli burials. From the Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age onwards, the tumuli burials begin to be classified as belonging to the Drin variation of the Glasinac-Mati culture. The Drin variant seems to be an off-shoot of the Mati complex rather than the Glasinac one. Tumuli burials as a whole are concentrated in the western and central regions of the country. Whilst non-tumuli burials are to be found in the east and north-east.

    However, I know that it has been suggested that the Brnjica contributed to the non-Illyrian element that is particularly concentrated in the east of Dardanian territory. Which is plausible.
    As a possible cultural correlation to the Dardani possibly being from the Mati complex originally, there is a connection between the Taulantii (around Mat, Durres area) and the Dardani. One of the kings of the Taulantii is called
    Galabrus, and obviously one of the most famous Dardani tribes are the Galabrii.

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