E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

[rafc]

That 388194 is "hidden". What does he have on DYF406S1, DYS568, DYS643 (if 111)?? You can send me in PM if not here.

Let's take FT7781. I don't know where he is from but he is member of Sicilian project and has an Italian surname.
But this clade has several clades, they all share just FT7781.
- Ossetian cluster, their TMRCA is alot more than 600 ybp, because more distant members haven't done BigY yet.
- Lybian
- Brasilian cluster
- Turkish Jew ERS1789480
- Sicilian, he could still be related to the guy above

How does this resemble C.Europe? Their TMRCA is around 4500 ybp or close to that.

What does it resemble to you?

FT7781 is very reliably defined by dys393=12, and based on that we can say FT7781 is extremely rare or non-existent in Greeks. None of the 70+ E-V13 FTDNA Greeks belong to it.

We do have one Pontic Greek with dys393=12, although it doesn't mean he belongs to FT7781.

[Johane Derite]

Previously in the thread I have seen some connect the Dardani of present-day Kosovo and the adjacent regions with the Bronze Age Brnjica culture, a culture which had archaeological sites spread across north-eastern Kosovo and into south-eastern Serbia. However from my discussions with a user who is not as active anymore on the forum, who had looked at some of the more recent archaeological data from Kosovo, it seems as if there is more of an association with the wider Glasinac-Mati complex through the Drin variant of the culture.

Associations with the Brnjica seem to be a little more outdated and primarily based on the works of Fanula Papazoglu (1978) and Alojz Benac (1950s-1960s). There has been an exponential increase in archaeological data and excavations in Kosovo since the beginning of the twenty-first century, with around 51 burials or sites being surveyed as of 2020. From my correspondences, 42 of the sites belong to tumuli burials with the remaining nine being non-tumuli burials. From the Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age onwards, the tumuli burials begin to be classified as belonging to the Drin variation of the Glasinac-Mati culture. The Drin variant seems to be an off-shoot of the Mati complex rather than the Glasinac one. Tumuli burials as a whole are concentrated in the western and central regions of the country. Whilst non-tumuli burials are to be found in the east and north-east.

However, I know that it has been suggested that the Brnjica contributed to the non-Illyrian element that is particularly concentrated in the east of Dardanian territory. Which is plausible.

One problem here I don't yet understand though is the connection with Dardanians of Anatolia. I don't think it is a coincidence, and I think that the Mysians, Phrygian, Dardanians of Anatolia are related to the Moesians, Dardani, and Brygians of Balkans. Dardanians of Anatolia must have already been established a couple of generations at the time of Trojan war, so if they hail from Mati/Drin complex, I guess this should be reflected somewhere archaeologically. Also, some myths place Dardanians in Arcadia, and recently some Brnjica finds have been found there, so I don't know what to make of it.

For the Brygians, Heinrich Eichner placed them around Mirdita right in between the Mati/Drin region:

[Johane Derite]

Also, we should really use more specific terms. Since Anatolian Dardanians and Mysians are earliest recorded in egyptian sources from battle of kadesh (1270 BC), we have a chronology with which to line up with archaeological cultures.

The term Illyrian is first used around 400BC by Hecateus.

[Johane Derite]

If we have Anatolian Dardanians and Mysians appearing as Hittite allies in both egyptian papyri and heiroglyphs, and if we accept the relation to their balkan counterparts, then we need to find sone sort of archaeoligcal connection that goes evem earlier than 1270BC, whether it be the Mati-Drin connection, or Brnjica

[gjergj]

If we have Anatolian Dardanians and Mysians appearing as Hittite allies in both egyptian papyri and heiroglyphs, and if we accept the relation to their balkan counterparts, then we need to find sone sort of archaeoligcal connection that goes evem earlier than 1270BC, whether it be the Mati-Drin connection, or Brnjica

With this timeline you are practically excluding the original Dardans to have been E-V13 or to have had E-V13 as a main haplo.

[Hawk]

With this timeline you are practically excluding the original Dardans to have been E-V13 or to have had E-V13 as a main haplo.

Why so? The crucial timeline for all E-V13 is 1500 B.C - 1000 B.C

[Johane Derite]

With this timeline you are practically excluding the original Dardans to have been E-V13 or to have had E-V13 as a main haplo.

Well, Dardanians and Mysians do appear in papyri and heiropglyphs about the battle of kadesh, from 1270 BC. And I don't think its possible to separate the anatolian-balkan doublets. I'm just trying to get a clear image, not make E-V13 the winner.


For the papyrus example:

https://twitter.com/ilonareg/status/1144329764557250565

The heiroglyphs that mention them are from the Temple of Karnak.



We know that Mysians were probably not Illyric linguistically, but cognate with the Thracian group. Some scholars argued that Dardanians were originally a language on continuum with thracian (as in, cognate, not under Thracian or a dialect of it but adjacent to it, these are two very different things) that then fell under an Illyrian adstrate.

Brygians in myth possibly appear as intrusive into Epirus at the time of Odysseus (Trojan War era), there is a myth that Thesprotians under Odysseus' leadership went to war with the Brygians.

If this is possibly the remnant memory of a migration into which some mysians, dardanians, brygians moved more south into the balkans (maybe sometime a bit earlier than the trojan war) and some into anatolia, then maybe it makes sense.

[Kelmendasi]

Well if the tumuli burials located within the territory of the Dardani begin to show a Glasinac-Mati character, specifically belonging to the Drin variant, from the transitionary period between the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, I think it is safe to say that by this point in time they belonged to the wider Illyrian cultural sphere. Even going by onomastics a similar thing can be suggested as Radoslav Katičić states that there initially seems to have been a predominance of anthroponymy typical for the core Illyrian onomastic area especially in the west, although this was replaced to a degree by the Delmato-Pannonian one. In the eastern Dardanian lands however there was a non-Illyrian element which Katičić states was Thracian in origin, however it could also have been related to the Brnjica as has been suggested by some.

[Johane Derite]

Well if the tumuli burials located within the territory of the Dardani begin to show a Glasinac-Mati character, specifically belonging to the Drin variant, from the transitionary period between the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, I think it is safe to say that by this point in time they belonged to the wider Illyrian cultural sphere. Even going by onomastics a similar thing can be suggested as Radoslav Katičić states that there initially seems to have been a predominance of anthroponymy typical for the core Illyrian onomastic area especially in the west, although this was replaced to a degree by the Delmato-Pannonian one. In the eastern Dardanian lands however there was a non-Illyrian element which Katičić states was Thracian in origin, however it could also have been related to the Brnjica as has been suggested by some.

Yes my point is that we should then expect that these Glasinac-Mati tumuli of the Drin variant should already be consolidated as Dardani by at least 1274 BC, since that is when one of their common origin groups had already been documented in Anatolia.

One problem here is, if we go by Strabo's account, the possibility of a difference between Dardani proper and Autariatae.

In strabo's account, the Dardani country begins after the river drilo (Drin river):


"Be this as it may, after the seaboard of the Ardiaei and the Pleraei come the Rhisonic Gulf, and the city Rhizo, and other small towns and also the River Drilo, which is navigable inland towards the east as far as the Dardanian country.

This country borders on the Macedonian and the Paeonian tribes on the south, as do also the Autariatae and the Dassaretii — different peoples on different sides being contiguous to one another and to the Autariatae.

To the Dardaniatae belong also the Galabrii, among whom is an ancient city, and the Thunatae, whose country joins that of the Medi, a Thracian tribe on the east."


Strabo
GEOGRAPHY
§ 7.5.7


If the Autariatae were the ones controlling the drin, and if they differed from the Dardani proper, and if the tumuli belonged to them, then it becomes even more confusing and complicated. Here he distinguishes Dardanians from Autariatae, but also from Thracians.

[Johane Derite]

I am really curious about this ancient city in Dardania, that belonged to the Galabrii. For a city to have been considered ancient by Strabo it must have something of interest in understanding the Dardani.