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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Cetina culture phase where it penetrates into Greece?
    Which Y-DNA would you associate with Cetina?

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  3. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    EV13 it is getting weaker in areas where Dorians have settled like South Peloponnese,Crete and Islands.It is also there,where the autosomal DNA of Greeks it is somehow changes.South Peloponnesus is not so northern shifted genetically and they are affected much less compared to the rest of mainland.Cretans and Greek islanders as well.Southern Greece inclunding some islands are more likely to be Z2103.If such lineages did not arrived with Mycenaens-Achaeans then they arrived with a LBA/IA migration from the north.I am not sure if EV13 has anything to do with Greeks or later with migrations from the balkans but Z2103 is definitely associated either with Mycenaeans or with people arriving from the north during the LBA/IA.If proto-Greeks arrived from a R1a source,similar to Corded or KMK Babyno culture then these R1b lineages that we seeing in Greece have arrived during the LBA or IA period.The origins of Greeks and Dorians will remain unsolved,until we have more DNA from Mycenaeans and realize from what Steppe culture they come from.
    I would say that J2a is even more important among the ancient Greeks although R1b was the original steppe marker. Many people at first got fooled by the large amount of E-M35 in Cyprus and assumed that most of it is E-V13. However Voskarides study about Cypriot yDNA revealed the following:
    Overall, the E-M35 haplogroup totals to 23.1 % and contains various E-M78 sub-haplogroups including E-V13 (7.3 %) that is common in Greece [10, 18, 35] and E-V22 (3.5 %), that is frequent in Egypt [10] and Sudan [49]. Another E-M35 related haplogroup, E-M34, previously reported in Asia Minor [31], Southern Levant [50, 51], and the Balkans [35] also was observed in Cyprus (10.3 %).
    So most of E-M35 in Cypriots is not of the European variant E-V13 but of MENA origin. Compared that also with the low amount of E-V13 in Crete, around 8%. The distribution of haplogroups in Greece is like a geological picture. The oldest ones, G, T, J2a, R1b, E1b(x E-V13) are to be found more in the islands and Cyprus as well as some isolated communities such as those from most Southern Pelloponese. Then you have increase of E-V13 in the other parts of Pelloponese and Epirus. While in North Greece we see the increase of the most recent haplogroups such as R1a and I-Y3120. And I wouldn't even prescribe all of E-V13 in Crete and the islands to the ancient Greeks. Some of it must have been the product of internal migrations from the times of the Roman Empire till the modern times.
    Target: Aspar_scaled
    Distance: 2.7750% / 0.02774955
    47.0 BGR_Late_C
    38.4 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    14.6 Levant_ISR_C

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  5. #323
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    I'm kind of leaning towards a more eastern origin than Gava, which seems to have its roots in the Carpathian basin. I've been looking at Sabatinovka-Noua-Coslogeni, the western offshoot of Timber grave culture. This corresponds more or less to the former TCC area. More important, they practiced inhumation like the Thracians later would do. So I could see them as a semi-nomadic steppe group who would move into the (eastern) Balkans at the LBA/EIA transistion in the big chain of population movements.
    If so, I wonder if the core Timber-Grave area is not the original homeland of the Armenians, if they moved south across the Caucasus from there they could have also dragged V13 along to the Anatolian highlands, creating the V13 in Armenians, Kurds, Iraqi's...
    Still not sure how to fit the early expansion of V13 in all that though.

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  7. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I'm kind of leaning towards a more eastern origin than Gava, which seems to have its roots in the Carpathian basin. I've been looking at Sabatinovka-Noua-Coslogeni, the western offshoot of Timber grave culture. This corresponds more or less to the former TCC area. More important, they practiced inhumation like the Thracians later would do. So I could see them as a semi-nomadic steppe group who would move into the (eastern) Balkans at the LBA/EIA transistion in the big chain of population movements.
    If so, I wonder if the core Timber-Grave area is not the original homeland of the Armenians, if they moved south across the Caucasus from there they could have also dragged V13 along to the Anatolian highlands, creating the V13 in Armenians, Kurds, Iraqi's...
    Still not sure how to fit the early expansion of V13 in all that though.
    Interesting you say that. I still think that Urnfield is the best option, going by what we have right now. But if being asked about a second option, the steppe component which spread in the early Iron Age is the second best choice. So not just being a push factor, but the primary spreader themselves. I don't see how that pans out in detail, because I think the E-V13 needs a more "protected environment" to survive and grow all the turmoil, for which the Carpathian zone and the specialisation of the inhabitants as miners and metal workers would be ideal.
    I'm also not sure the steppe group had the punch to spread it that far and wide, with such a lasting impact, and I think its also more difficult to reconcile with how they should have picked it up in the first place, but yeah, its kind of a possibility, among others.

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  9. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I would say that J2a is even more important among the ancient Greeks although R1b was the original steppe marker. Many people at first got fooled by the large amount of E-M35 in Cyprus and assumed that most of it is E-V13. However Voskarides study about Cypriot yDNA revealed the following:

    So most of E-M35 in Cypriots is not of the European variant E-V13 but of MENA origin. Compared that also with the low amount of E-V13 in Crete, around 8%. The distribution of haplogroups in Greece is like a geological picture. The oldest ones, G, T, J2a, R1b, E1b(x E-V13) are to be found more in the islands and Cyprus as well as some isolated communities such as those from most Southern Pelloponese. Then you have increase of E-V13 in the other parts of Pelloponese and Epirus. While in North Greece we see the increase of the most recent haplogroups such as R1a and I-Y3120. And I wouldn't even prescribe all of E-V13 in Crete and the islands to the ancient Greeks. Some of it must have been the product of internal migrations from the times of the Roman Empire till the modern times.


    Yes this is pretty much the case.I am not sure about EV13 and R1b,i will wait for more ancient DNA but i tend to agree that EV13 and R1a in Crete are migrations from mainland.It is well known that mainland Greeks started to migrating to islands during the Ottoman times.Many important figures from Crete are actually half mainland Greeks in their origins.And many people have surnames that dosn't fit,or do not represent with Cretan roots.Also,if we take serious historical sources,i cannot remember any straightway Slavic migration to Crete or to Islands.It is actually the opposite,that Crete received repopulations and settlements from West Asia and more specific from Anatolia and the Levant.

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  11. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I'm kind of leaning towards a more eastern origin than Gava, which seems to have its roots in the Carpathian basin. I've been looking at Sabatinovka-Noua-Coslogeni, the western offshoot of Timber grave culture. This corresponds more or less to the former TCC area. More important, they practiced inhumation like the Thracians later would do. So I could see them as a semi-nomadic steppe group who would move into the (eastern) Balkans at the LBA/EIA transistion in the big chain of population movements.
    If so, I wonder if the core Timber-Grave area is not the original homeland of the Armenians, if they moved south across the Caucasus from there they could have also dragged V13 along to the Anatolian highlands, creating the V13 in Armenians, Kurds, Iraqi's...
    Still not sure how to fit the early expansion of V13 in all that though.
    This is a very interesting question. Looking at the geographical distribution under E-V13 from a perspective at the eastern edges of such distribution, things become even more fuzzy. For example: there are 10 E-V13 Big-Ys in the Armenian project and 8 of them have a TMRCA node of under 3000 ybp. Of those 8 samples 5 share a nod with samples from the western edges of such distribution, mostly Portugal/Spain and the British Isles.

    Armenians.PNG

    There is one additional Armenian sample with 111 markers which very likely is under L17, an exclusively western subclade. Though the diversity under E-V13 is remarkable for such a small sample size, the range of TMRCAs in my opinion clearly hints to a simultaneous source-to-east and source-to-west direction of migration with a western leg which suspiciously often encompasses Iberia and the British Isles at the same time.

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  13. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    This is a very interesting question. Looking at the geographical distribution under E-V13 from a perspective at the eastern edges of such distribution, things become even more fuzzy. For example: there are 10 E-V13 Big-Ys in the Armenian project and 8 of them have a TMRCA node of under 3000 ybp. Of those 8 samples 5 share a nod with samples from the western edges of such distribution, mostly Portugal/Spain and the British Isles.

    Armenians.PNG

    There is one additional Armenian sample with 111 markers which very likely is under L17, an exclusively western subclade. Though the diversity under E-V13 is remarkable for such a small sample size, the range of TMRCAs in my opinion clearly hints to a simultaneous source-to-east and source-to-west direction of migration with a western leg which suspiciously often encompasses Iberia and the British Isles at the same time.
    That would, too, fit in nicely with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, because it influenced Celts in the West and had, at the same time, connections to the very East, up to the Caucasus. There were Caucasian-Pontic steppe derived objects found very far to the West. And these were elites moving. So regardless of whether Urnfield was the original carrier, they at least became part of this movements, which could have brought them to both extremes, like Celts in the West, Iranians in the East, because this sphere seems to have been, in the Early Iron Age, interconnected, with kind of "exchange programs" of specialists, elites and whole clans and tribes moving from one end to the other. From the EIA on E-V13 should pop up much more often in this sphere, from Bohemia-Austria-Switzerland-Italy to Russia-Caucasus, from Poland to Greece, whenever larger samples being taken. Secondarily, late Urnfield groups, but especially Hallstatt and La Tene, should have brought the Celtic E-V13 to Gaul and Britain I'd say.
    The Chinese samples would fit into this as well, entering Iranian/Scythian groups on their way East.

    Should be easy to check by a direct comparison of the Thraco-Cimmerian sphere and finds with earliest E-V13:



    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...7jo7scGsfYq2jA

    Since I would primarily associate it with the Thracian part, which I would derive at least to a large degree from South Eastern Urnfield, this would also explain why to the West and South its stronger, while less frequent in the East where the Iranian-like lineages would have been dominant in this sphere.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-03-2020 at 04:38 PM.

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  15. #328
    Looks like a nicely fitting explanation, I agree. But I still do think that the picture we see is highly skewed. One can easily do the over/under representation math by taking the population sizes of countries of origin and the corresponding numbers of SNP-tested samples from the public FTDNA tree. The average sample size from Balkan countries is 5 per 100,000 inhabitants. Ireland is at 195 (50 times higher), England at 20.8, Armenia at 18.7 and Portugal at 8.3. If we add the assumption that the Balkan diversity under E-V13 underwent a massive contraction 1500 years ago (Justinian plague and subsequent massive immigrations), we could explain the lacking diversity in the modern Balkans and all the suspicious bottlenecks in Balkan E-V13 subclades ending mostly between 1000 and 1500ybp.

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  17. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    This is a very interesting question. Looking at the geographical distribution under E-V13 from a perspective at the eastern edges of such distribution, things become even more fuzzy. For example: there are 10 E-V13 Big-Ys in the Armenian project and 8 of them have a TMRCA node of under 3000 ybp. Of those 8 samples 5 share a nod with samples from the western edges of such distribution, mostly Portugal/Spain and the British Isles.

    Armenians.PNG

    There is one additional Armenian sample with 111 markers which very likely is under L17, an exclusively western subclade. Though the diversity under E-V13 is remarkable for such a small sample size, the range of TMRCAs in my opinion clearly hints to a simultaneous source-to-east and source-to-west direction of migration with a western leg which suspiciously often encompasses Iberia and the British Isles at the same time.
    Thanks for the info. Can you convince that L17 guy to do a Big Y?

  18. #330
    It´s kit 173104 on the Armenian project (67 Markers). Nevgen gives him a 96.53% chance to be L17. I am sure Hovann would be delighted to ask if there is a sponsor ;-)

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