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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    Looks like a nicely fitting explanation, I agree. But I still do think that the picture we see is highly skewed. One can easily do the over/under representation math by taking the population sizes of countries of origin and the corresponding numbers of SNP-tested samples from the public FTDNA tree. The average sample size from Balkan countries is 5 per 100,000 inhabitants. Ireland is at 195 (50 times higher), England at 20.8, Armenia at 18.7 and Portugal at 8.3. If we add the assumption that the Balkan diversity under E-V13 underwent a massive contraction 1500 years ago (Justinian plague and subsequent massive immigrations), we could explain the lacking diversity in the modern Balkans and all the suspicious bottlenecks in Balkan E-V13 subclades ending mostly between 1000 and 1500ybp.
    That's true, but countries like Austria yielded with just a few quality samples from a single project basal clades for major E-V13 subclades. At the same time, the testing at NGS level is surely not much better in countries like Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova. Additionally, in these countries there was not just a contraction of the population, but a large scale replacement. Like in Austria minimum 50-75 percent of the average Roman times lineages being replaced by Germanic and Slavic newcomers. If you calculate from these numbers, you see a drastic rise of today not as common clades of E1b, G2, J, I2 and non-Germanic R1b. This really changes the region, which was rather at the Western transitional zone to the more R1b dominated sphere. And I don't think that the whole variation can be explained by Roman times movements, even less so for Czechia, where the numbers for the pre-Germanic/pre-Slavic lineages, even if assuming some E-V13 were coming with Germanic and Slavic, is not that fundamentally different. Yet it was outside of the Roman sphere and the same pattern just thins out to the North, there is no real cut off.

    So I think it doesn't matter that much that the current results are skewed in this respect, because the disadvantage for the Balkan region was surely much less important than in the remaining, more Northern regions of the former E-V13 distribution, where in some regions a near total replacement took place. Like if some Urnfield groups in Poland had higher rates of E-V13, just as a hypothetical example, so many groups rolled over them, that the question is what's supposed to have survived there anyway? The results are skewed for the British testing population however, that's for sure. Because from Britain we have almost everything, if any group would be that well tested, even Germans are at a much lower rate, things would be much more clear. Unfortunately we are a long way from that.

    I think the Balkan situation being best described as a retracting of groups which tried to evade the incoming steppe nomads and Slavs in particular. Some of these groups united with Slavic incomers, that formed new Southern Slavic lineages, but others tried to evade the new Slavic rule by pushing themselves Southward or retreated to harder to access terrain, especially as mountain pastoralists.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-03-2020 at 05:57 PM.

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  3. #332
    The countries you mentioned are within a range of 6 to 9 samples per 100,000 inhabitants (Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary), not that bad. Only Romania and Moldova are genetically really black holes (2.3 and 2.4 respectively). But your reference to the Genomaustria project underlines my point. Let´s take as comparison the Francalacci study with 1200 samples from Sardinia. This study resulted in 10 highly diverse E-V13 samples. My point is: If we would have a study of similar size for North Macedonia (nearly the same population size as Sardinia), the tree under E-V13 would immediately explode ;-) The only question would be whether the samples would cluster in some specific young subclades or would they be all over the place.

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  5. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post

    I think the Balkan situation being best described as a retracting of groups which tried to evade the incoming steppe nomads and Slavs in particular. Some of these groups united with Slavic incomers, that formed new Southern Slavic lineages, but others tried to evade the new Slavic rule by pushing themselves Southward or retreated to harder to access terrain, especially as mountain pastoralists.
    What time period are you talking about here and do you have any data to support it? Are there any indications for
    emergence of new people for Europe (genetically) for the specific period in addition to the ridiculous written theories dating back to the 18th century which are in complete contrast with the old historical sources?

  6. #334
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    I know we are taking about E-V-3, but does anyone have any insight on the downstream cts5856 vs PH1246? I’m ph1246, paternal line from Calabria. I recall, but could be wrong that the majority v13 in south Italy and Sicily are on the 5856 branch. Does ph1246 in Italy just represent a more recent migration to Italy from somewhere else? It might not be worth much and I certainly can not confirm this, but Italian Wikipedia says the town my line is from was formed in mid-1400’s from “Greeks and Albanians” fleeing Constantinople after the ottoman overthrow. This sounds a bit too easy of an explanation and likely typical Wikipedia as I do t think there is a source but that’s all I have at this point.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminà (RC) Italy

  7. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That would, too, fit in nicely with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, because it influenced Celts in the West and had, at the same time, connections to the very East, up to the Caucasus. There were Caucasian-Pontic steppe derived objects found very far to the West. And these were elites moving. So regardless of whether Urnfield was the original carrier, they at least became part of this movements, which could have brought them to both extremes, like Celts in the West, Iranians in the East, because this sphere seems to have been, in the Early Iron Age, interconnected, with kind of "exchange programs" of specialists, elites and whole clans and tribes moving from one end to the other. From the EIA on E-V13 should pop up much more often in this sphere, from Bohemia-Austria-Switzerland-Italy to Russia-Caucasus, from Poland to Greece, whenever larger samples being taken. Secondarily, late Urnfield groups, but especially Hallstatt and La Tene, should have brought the Celtic E-V13 to Gaul and Britain I'd say.
    The Chinese samples would fit into this as well, entering Iranian/Scythian groups on their way East.

    Should be easy to check by a direct comparison of the Thraco-Cimmerian sphere and finds with earliest E-V13:



    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...7jo7scGsfYq2jA

    Since I would primarily associate it with the Thracian part, which I would derive at least to a large degree from South Eastern Urnfield, this would also explain why to the West and South its stronger, while less frequent in the East where the Iranian-like lineages would have been dominant in this sphere.
    As a second scenario, the E-V13 was also brought to China by Greek soldiers, Alexander and his troops advanced far to the east (Sogdia) and thus into the sphere of influence of China
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
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    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  9. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    It´s kit 173104 on the Armenian project (67 Markers). Nevgen gives him a 96.53% chance to be L17. I am sure Hovann would be delighted to ask if there is a sponsor ;-)
    I know that kit. I actually already discussed it in the past with Hovann. It's not possible to test it any further. I don't see any clear reason why Nevgen is so sure of L17. As far as I see his closest match is an Ashkenazi who is also not tested below V13. Maybe they have a profile in their database that is L17 tested, but I'm a bit skeptical.

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  11. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    As a second scenario, the E-V13 was also brought to China by Greek soldiers, Alexander and his troops advanced far to the east (Sogdia) and thus into the sphere of influence of China
    The clades under which these Chinese were, if I remember correctly, point rather towards an origin from North of the Balkans and they appear in provinces which have little West Eurasian influence other than from the steppe, primarily R1a. Of course, a Hellenistic Greek or Thracian soldier could have made it to Central Asia and from there into an Iranian group, but I think that is less likely. Even more so since there seems to be some diversity within these Chinese haplotypes with E-V13, and like I said, in provinces or close to such with known steppe influence. So possible, but not more likely I'd say.

  12. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I know that kit. I actually already discussed it in the past with Hovann. It's not possible to test it any further. I don't see any clear reason why Nevgen is so sure of L17. As far as I see his closest match is an Ashkenazi who is also not tested below V13. Maybe they have a profile in their database that is L17 tested, but I'm a bit skeptical.
    Thx for the info. By the way, this other Armenian sample under BY5407 is clustered in the E-M35 project together with a Slovakian with only 12 STRs (GD=3). Is this Slovakian sample SNP-tested?

  13. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The clades under which these Chinese were, if I remember correctly, point rather towards an origin from North of the Balkans and they appear in provinces which have little West Eurasian influence other than from the steppe, primarily R1a. Of course, a Hellenistic Greek or Thracian soldier could have made it to Central Asia and from there into an Iranian group, but I think that is less likely. Even more so since there seems to be some diversity within these Chinese haplotypes with E-V13, and like I said, in provinces or close to such with known steppe influence. So possible, but not more likely I'd say.
    I think both scenarios are correct but that is definitely true. E-V13 would also be found in a Scytho-Sarmatian, as you also had extensive trade contacts (global players of your time) and were constantly mobile between the Pannonian Plain to the Eastern Eurasian steppe and the northern Chinese provinces, the Scythian absorbed E-V13 in the Balkans, and the Hellenistic soldier most likely inherited it through his Thracian ancestors and brought it to eastern Central Asia, and both fit well with the historical context and dynamism of the time
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

  14. #340
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    I don't know if they were Dorian or not, but i think it's clear-cut there was an invasion during LBA in Southern Balkans.

    If we assume E-V13 is the one who spread within Urnfield horizon, then we can safely assume the entrance in the Southern Balkans during LBA. In Greece some of them came via Adriatic sea with ships, just as they landed on Southern Albania.

    The evidence for cremation burials in the LH/LM IIIC period is re-evaluated. It can be concluded that the widely held view, according to which the custom of cremation was introduced to the Aegean from Asia Minor, no longer applies. It is necessary to differentiate between cremation as a minority rite in ordinary chamber tomb cemeteries and cremation as a majority rite in tumuli in order to understand the cultural affiliation of the custom. Cremation as a minority rite in chamber tomb cemeteries probably derives from Italian influence. The tumuli with inurned cremations in the Argolid seem to be connected to the Western Balkans. There was no direct or continuous development that led directly from the occasional LH IIIC cremation burials to cremation as the almost exclusively practiced type of burial in Attica and Euboea during the Early Iron Age. Cremations during the LH IIIC period and during the Early Iron Age are two separate phenomena, each having a different cultural and social background. Cremation was a very rare burial practice throughout the entire Aegean Bronze Age. Generally, this also applies to the 12th century BC, the time after the destruction of the Mycenaean palaces that was accompanied by the complete dissolution of the palatial political and economic system. This period is referred to as LH (Late Helladic) IIIC on the Greek mainland and LM (Late Minoan) IIIC on the island of Crete. However, some considerable changes occurred in the 12th century BC with regards to cremation burials. There were far more cemeteries with a few cremation burials in this period than in the preceding palatial era of the Mycenaean culture (LH IIIA–LH IIIB: ca. 1400–1200 BC). It is far from certain that cremation was practiced at all during the palatial period in the area of the MycenaeBrandbestattungen von der mittleren Donau bis zur Ägäis zwischen 1300 und 750 v. Chr. 186 an culture.1 Claims of cremation burials in chamber tomb cemeteries by archaeologists without any anthropological evidence or without cremation urns should be treated with extreme caution. This is because of the widespread, though still not generally noticed, practice of cleaning chamber tombs by purification fires,2 which could have resulted in the partial burning or smoking of bones from inhumation burials. These partly burned bones could easily be mistaken for genuine cremation burials by the non-specialist. There is not a single Mycenaean cremation burial of the palatial 1. One cemetery with a predominance of cremation burials was in use during the LM IIIA2–LM IIIB period on Crete: Olous in the eastern part of the island: Kanta 2001. The cremations were deposited mainly in pithoi. This unusual custom indicates that the cemetery at Olous represents an isolated phenomenon, which cannot be connected to the spread of cremation burials during the LM IIIC period. Other LM IIIA–LM IIIB cremations are unknown. 2. Morricone 1967, 31. – Cavanagh, Mee 1998, 112–113 and n. 83– 84. The custom was much more widespread than Cavanagh and Mee believe. – Gallou 2005, 120–123. – Jung 2007, 216 and n. 8; 229 and n. 89. Jung as well as Cavanagh and Mee surmise that the fires had a ritual background. – Paschalidis, McGeorge 2009, 104. period that is confirmed by anthropological analysis. Only two cases of LH IIIA–LH IIIB cremation urns have been asserted so far. One was found in Brauron in East Attica,3 the other in the Mycenaean type chamber tomb cemetery at Müskebi near Bodrum on the southwestern coast of Asia Minor.4 The possible cremation remains from chamber tomb A in the cemetery at Brauron were deposited in a small alabastron that was found next to a fireplace. According to the excavator‘s convincing interpretation this fireplace is the remains of a purification fire. This gives reason to speculate that the bones in the alabastron were burnt by the purification fire. Moreover, the greenish discoloration of the bones from their contact with bronze objects is more fitting for the inhumed than for cremated bones. Thus, the possible inurned cremation in Müskebi is the only reported case of a LH IIIA–LH IIIB cremation burial that can be accepted with some degree of confidence. However, even in this instance, the limited amount of information does not make it certain. 3. Lazaridis 1968, 99. 4. Boysal 1967, 79. Fig. 1. LH IIIC, LM IIIC and Subminoan cemeteries with cremation burials in the Aegean region. – 1. Elateia – 2. Perati – 3. Mycenae-Chania – 4. Argos – 5. Palaiokastro – 6. Agrapidochori – 7. Spaliareika – 8. Kallithea-Spentzes – 9. Achaea Klauss – 10. Cos, Langada – 11. Rhodes, Ialysos – For Crete see fig. 2 (F. Ruppenstein, prepared by M. Frauenglas). Cremation burials in Greece from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age: continuity or change? 187 Besides the few cremations in cemeteries with inhumation as a majority rite a small number of cemeteries, in which cremation was the prevailing burial practice, made their first appearance in the 12th century BC. A more distinctive change in the Greek burial customs happened at the very beginning of the Early Iron Age in the late 11th century BC. In some regions, notably in Attica and Euboea, cremation became the dominant, nearly exclusively practiced burial custom. These alterations in the burial customs and the reasons behind them have attracted scholarly interest for a long time and are still continuing to do so. In the following I will try to add some new thoughts to this ongoing discussion. Emphasis will be placed on the origins of the new burial rite in the 12th century BC and to the relationship between LH IIIC and Early Iron Age cremations. On the origins of the cremation burial rite in the 12th century Aegean When discussing the origins of cremation as a burial custom in the Aegean region it is not advisable to treat all LH/ LMIIIC cremations as a unity (cf. figs. 1–2). The cremation burials of this period can be divided into two groups according to the structure of the cemeteries to which they belong. The first group consists of the cremation burials in traditional Mycenaean chamber tomb cemeteries in which inhumations clearly dominated. The small number of cremations was placed in the same tombs as the numerous inhumations. Apparently, the people who practiced cremation in this way were fully integrated members of the respective local Mycenaean communities. Cemeteries with a predominance of cremation burials belong to the second group. Only three such cemeteries are known: at Argos5 and Mycenae-Chania6 on the Greek mainland and at Atsipades7 on Crete. The cremation burial cemeteries at Argos and Mycenae-Chania were established in other places to the usual chamber tomb cemeteries of the same settlements. Moreover, they differ from the customary Mycenaean cemeteries because the cremations were deposited in tumuli and not in chamber tombs. Thus, the communities who cremated their deceased members and buried them in tumuli clearly set themselves apart from the majority of the population. Therefore, it can be inferred that these communities were distinct groups, which were not fully integrated into the Mycenaean society. Firstly, the origin of cremation burials in chamber tombs will be investigated. Cremation burial as a minority rite in chamber tomb cemeteries It is still almost generally accepted that the custom of cremation was introduced to the Aegean from Asia Minor. This hypothesis was supported most forcefully by Spyros Iakovidis.8 However, Reinhard Jung and Oliver Dickinson have since argued that at least the cremation burials in Achaea could have been inspired by contacts with Italy9. Nevertheless, neither R. Jung nor O. Dickinson doubts the 5. Piteros 2001. 6. Palaiologou, this volume. 7. Agelarakis, Kanta, Moody 2001. 8. Iakovidis 1970, vol. 2, 56–57. 9. Jung 2007, 229. – Dickinson 2006, 73. Fig. 2. LM IIIC and Subminoan cemeteries with cremation burials on Crete. – 1. Atsipades-Pezoulos – 2. Phaistos-Liliana – 3. Tylissos – 4. Knossos, North Cemetery – 5. Kritsa – 6. Vrokastro – 7. Tourloti – 8. Myrsini – 9. Mesa Mouliana – 10. Krya – 11. Praisos-Photoula – 12. Epano Zakros-Palaimylos (F. Ruppenstein, prepared by M. Frauenglas). Brandbestattungen von der mittleren Donau bis zur Ägäis zwischen 1300 und 750 v. Chr. 188 importance of Anatolia as the place of origin for the custom of cremation in the Mycenaean culture. Yet there are significant reasons why it can be believed that the LH/LM IIIC cremations in the Aegean are not at all connected to Asia Minor: 1. If Asia Minor was indeed the source of inspiration for the introduction of cremation to the Aegean, one would have expected cremations of an early date and in comparatively large numbers in the regions of the Mycenaean cultural sphere next to Anatolia, especially on the Dodecanese. However, this is not the case. Just one possible cremation burial of the palatial period has been reported for Ialysos on Rhodes but it is far more likely that this is just a case of an inhumation that was smoked by a purification fire.10 The one possible inurned cremation in Müskebi can hardly be the reason for the spread of this custom to the Aegean. In LH IIIC cremation burials are well represented in the chamber tomb cemetery at Ialysos. According to Mario Benzi eight secure instances were found.11 A further example is known from the island of Kos.12 However, these numbers are not exceptionally high when compared to sites on the Greek mainland. In the cemetery of Perati in East Attica 18 cremated individuals were found.13 2. Regions with an extraordinarily high concentration of cemeteries with cremations show no particular connection to Asia Minor. This is particularly obvious in the case of the northwestern Peloponnese due to its geographical position. Yet even East Crete, that is much closer to Anatolia than the northwestern Peloponnese, exhibits no characteristics in its material culture, which reveal a close relationship with the indigenous cultures of LESS

    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...827cd08ec99926
    Last edited by Hawk; 12-04-2020 at 10:38 AM.

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