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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1161
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    Quote Originally Posted by BukeKrypEZemer View Post
    Are any subclades available from the six Thracian finds? I hear about them for the first time.
    Is it not wrong to speak about E-V13 as a whole? As it apparently is pretty old and widespread, we see that they did never travel as a united bad-boy-gang around Europe.
    No, they come from a leak. Apparently they will be published in an upcoming paper by David Reich.

    Anyway E-V13 = solely Thracian as our Slavo-Vlach buddies are fighting in making has some serious issues on some old E-V13 clades being found in and around Central Europe where Proto-Thracians never even roamed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, they come from a leak. Apparently they will be published in an upcoming paper by David Reich.

    Anyway E-V13 = solely Thracian as our Slavo-Vlach buddies are fighting in making has some serious issues on some old E-V13 clades being found in and around Central Europe where Proto-Thracians never even roamed.
    Six samples from the EIA (?) in such a large territory can't be used for the conclusion "Thracians were predominantly E-V13" or even the conclusion "some Thracians were E-V13" (which, of course, is a valid theory on paper) because without knowing the material context of each site we can't place any label there. A very small sample size without archaeological context can't be properly used to formulate theories.

    The other big problem with this theory is that the Thracians came with other IE-speaking people in the Balkans: Proto-Greeks and Proto-Illyrians and E-V13 has not been found in earlier periods in the territory of historical Thrace (yet - again a very small sample size makes this just a speculation), so for Iron Age Thracians to have been E-V13 a massive population replacement would have to have happened which miraculously left no trace to the language itself and Thracian remained a typical IE language.

    Just like the theories about the Dorians, language remains the great barrier which no "X IE group was predominantly E-V13" theory can overcome.

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  5. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Six samples from the EIA (?) in such a large territory can't be used for the conclusion "Thracians were predominantly E-V13" or even the conclusion "some Thracians were E-V13" (which, of course, is a valid theory on paper) because without knowing the material context of each site we can't place any label there. A very small sample size without archaeological context can't be properly used to formulate theories.

    The other big problem with this theory is that the Thracians came with other IE-speaking people in the Balkans: Proto-Greeks and Proto-Illyrians and E-V13 has not been found in earlier periods in the territory of historical Thrace (yet - again a very small sample size makes this just a speculation), so for Iron Age Thracians to have been E-V13 a massive population replacement would have to have happened which miraculously left no trace to the language itself and Thracian remained a typical IE language.

    Just like the theories about the Dorians, language remains the great barrier which no "X IE group was predominantly E-V13" theory can overcome.
    Yes, Thracians were mostly E-V13. That's undeniable. Stamov leaks showed Iron Age Kapitan Andreevo around Svilengrad not only majority E-V13 but every single one of them as E-V13. Those few unclassified E/E-Z1919 were E-V13 as well for sure.

    Secondly, Moesian leaks by one of the members showed predominately E-V13 as well. We already explained this, we also had leaks about Early Bronze, and Late Neolithic Bulgaria, where Early Bronze Age was dominated by R1b-Z2103 and some R1a and I2, while Late Neolithic was exclusively G2a.

    Now the unknown/question is:

    1. Was the takeover from within Balkans?

    2. Did they come from North, from around North/West Carpathians?

    Now, how Thracians ended up as E-V13 is a puzzle to me as much as how the Semites ended up being J1.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-06-2021 at 11:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yes, Thracians were mostly E-V13. That's undeniable. Stamov leaks showed Iron Age Kapitan Andreevo around Svilengrad not only majority E-V13 but every single one of them as E-V13. Those few unclassified E/E-Z1919 were E-V13 as well for sure.

    Secondly, Moesian leaks by one of the members showed predominately E-V13 as well. We already explained this, we also had leaks about Early Bronze, and Late Neolithic Bulgaria, where Early Bronze Age was dominated by R1b-Z2103 and some R1a and I2, while Late Neolithic was exclusively G2a.

    Now the unknown/question is:

    1. Was the takeover from within Balkans?

    2. Did they come from North, from around North/West Carpathians?

    Now, how Thracians ended up as E-V13 is a puzzle to me as much as how the Semites ended up being J1.
    I've seen the same leaks too, but the very small sample size doesn't allow for such broad conclusions. If you had to write a paper, you wouldn't be able to draw the conclusion "Thracians were predominantly E-V13" based on just that result.

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  9. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    But there is. Five out of six Thracian IA finds are E-V13. Besides if Thracians were the LBA people connected to certain cultures E-V13 seems to be heavily implicated with that makes them, E-V13, the original Thracians, in the same way J-Z2331 are original proto-Semitics.
    Even if Thracians were EBA people E-V13 could have been heavily involved.



    That is not the whole of Dardania. The original Dardanians (maybe related to Anatolian Dardanii) have nothing to do with the Illyrians. They spoke another language and they had a very different material culture. Even if you could somehow deny such influences regarding the Brnjica group, there is another stronger proto-Dardanian culture that cannot possibly be denied..



    We'll deal with this later.
    E-M84 also proto-semetic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Indeed he is 99.9 % E-Y150909a based on his STR's. I presume it is the guy who also joined the Serbian project with a Macedonian/Bulgarian surname..
    I don't usually throw ethnic labels around unless I know what I'm talking about. I've exchanged massages with the guy and he is indeed a Bulgarian with origins from Central Macedonia. His ancestor was a priest and his original last name was with ski/ich. The last names could be indicative today but in the past they weren't really indicative for a person's origin. For example, before the second half of the 19-th century, many priests and educated and prominent people in both Macedonia and Bulgaria tended to russify their last names with suffixes such as ski(ски)/ich(ич). It wasn't unusual for Bulgarians to have last names that ended in both ski and ich. A notable example in Macedonia was Kiril Peychinovich and in Bulgaria Georgi Rakovski born Popovich.

    Even in Serbia in the past and today you have people with suffixes such as ov/ev but who were/are ethnic Serbs nevertheless.

    Of help would be an STR that defines the entire E-Y16729, currently I don't see such Y111 STR.
    For great many Y16729+, not for all tho, DYS393=12 could be an indication.
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-07-2021 at 07:52 AM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  13. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Just like the theories about the Dorians, language remains the great barrier which no "X IE group was predominantly E-V13" theory can overcome.
    That is just your opinion.

    Today we have Hungarian language with traces of Uralic haplogroups in Hungary.
    There is also example of East Germany where Germanization of Slavs took place during the middle ages.
    And there is number of other example but these are the most distinctive.

    So you should take it easy with saying everyone is wrong, and actually try to explain what happened with E-V13 haplogroup and how did it spread in the Balkans and in Europe in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, they come from a leak. Apparently they will be published in an upcoming paper by David Reich.

    Anyway E-V13 = solely Thracian as our Slavo-Vlach buddies are fighting in making has some serious issues on some old E-V13 clades being found in and around Central Europe where Proto-Thracians never even roamed.
    I think that's a question of timing and definition. Because, as an example, what is the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt culture in this context? We could put it that way: The main body of E-V13 was evolving into Daco-Thracians, but from early to later times, from this core and source group, individuals and small groups began to move out in various directions, influencing for example other Urnfield groups other than the South Eastern ones, and spreading within Hallstatt culture later.
    So the likely scenario is one original core around Eastern Slovakia-Northern Romania, and varying degrees of influence around it, with different prehistorical cultures being associated with a bigger scale movement, like the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Cimmerian.png

    So they were not necessarily Daco-Thracians, but many of the dispersals can be explained coming from the Proto-Thracian centre from the LBA to the EIA in particular. They were, at that time, especially with Gáva-Holigrady, among the technologically leading people of Europe. That didn't last for long, but its exactly in this time window that the big expansion of E-V13 happened, and honestly I don't believe in coincidences of that kind.

    There is, by the way, practically no way around Urnfield being the big first spreader, however, the question is how many of its provinces were E-V13 heavy, was it just the South Eastern fringe, or a large part of e.g. Lusatian too. Were the Danubian groups more involved in this? That's still unresolved, but the involvement of Urnfield is undeniable at this point, because for the time window in question, that was the big spreading event which could have led to a big replacement in the Balkans. And its the right timing going after the currently available evidence, because Pannonia and the Balkans was largely E-V13 free before, but E-V13 heavy afterwards in the Iron Age.
    Last edited by Riverman; 03-07-2021 at 10:49 AM.

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  17. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think that's a question of timing and definition. Because, as an example, what is the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt culture in this context? We could put it that way: The main body of E-V13 was evolving into Daco-Thracians, but from early to later times, from this core and source group, individuals and small groups began to move out in various directions, influencing for example other Urnfield groups other than the South Eastern ones, and spreading within Hallstatt culture later.
    So the likely scenario is one original core around Eastern Slovakia-Northern Romania, and varying degrees of influence around it, with different prehistorical cultures being associated with a bigger scale movement, like the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Cimmerian.png

    So they were not necessarily Daco-Thracians, but many of the dispersals can be explained coming from the Proto-Thracian centre from the LBA to the EIA in particular. They were, at that time, especially with Gáva-Holigrady, among the technologically leading people of Europe. That didn't last for long, but its exactly in this time window that the big expansion of E-V13 happened, and honestly I don't believe in coincidences of that kind.

    There is, by the way, practically no way around Urnfield being the big first spreader, however, the question is how many of its provinces were E-V13 heavy, was it just the South Eastern fringe, or a large part of e.g. Lusatian too. Were the Danubian groups more involved in this? That's still unresolved, but the involvement of Urnfield is undeniable at this point, because for the time window in question, that was the big spreading event which could have led to a big replacement in the Balkans. And its the right timing going after the currently available evidence, because Pannonia and the Balkans was largely E-V13 free before, but E-V13 heavy afterwards in the Iron Age.
    Well, that's funny because it fits the area called Beskids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

    which supposedly has Proto-Albanian origin coming from Alb. bjeshke aka mountain.

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