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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The first leak from Stamov had EBA results which were mostly R1b, R1a, I2a.

    Then we have the second leak 1 month ago again from Stamov which has results from Late Neolithic Bulgaria and most of samples are G2a with one Chalcolithic R1b.

    Again, none of which is E-V13.
    And the same being reported from Pannonia. And looking where massive immigration in the meantime, between the MBA-EIA, should have come from, there is practically no way for a population expansion that big to have affected Eastern Hallstatt, the Balkan and the Carpathian regions, which all seem to have harboured significant amounts of E-V13 in the Iron Age, plus the high likelihood of a fairly early, somewhat chaotic spread during the LBA-EIA up to the West, deep into later Celtic territory, like the E1b among the Gaulish samples.
    There was just one sample from the wider Hungarian sphere, but unfortunately we don't know from where exactly. If it was from close to Slovakia, that's like a smoking gun for the association with later Southern Urnfield groups. If it was there and nowhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We have no results from Pannonia and the Balkan suggesting a massive increase of E-V13 between the EBA and EIA. From the EIA, there is relative continuity in many places, so it gets more difficult to explain such a massive shift in frequencies. This leaves only the MBA-EIA time frame for this massive replacement and the single best candidate, looking at both the prehistoric distribution and the modern one, working as an agent, is Urnfield-related groups.

    The problem with the assumption of any group being not dominated by E-V13 makes the explanation for its later widespread distribution and high frequency between Pannonia and the Carpathains, from Noricum to Greece, even more difficult to explain. Looking at it in the crucial time, the whole region got filled with Urnfield- and EIA Eastern Hallstatt as well as Thracian influences. It would fit so nicely. But of course, that doesn't mean that Urnfield as a whole was E-V13 at all or that even the groups spreading the most like Proto-Thracian were exclusively E-V13, both not.
    Yes that is my point basically, there is not a need for the entire Urnfield cultural system to have been dominated or spearheaded by E-V13 to explain a high presence of E-V13 in Iron age Southeastern Europe by way of the Urnfield culture. The only requirement would be that the Urnfield related peoples which migrated into Southeastern Europe carried E-V13 to a respectable degree. And that isn't even a big requirement, as you could have an explosion of V13 clades several generations after the initial migrations, overriding any potentialdiversity of the initial migrations.

    And there is plenty of room for such later explosions as founder effects seem to be the common theme amongst bronze age Indo-European communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    A founder effect would explain one Iron age V13 group showing up only in the Balkans and not to the north, if the Urnfield system had multiple haplogroups. If a group of V13 had a founder effect within the urnfield system it explains going both directions. Now several groups of V13 were involved, groups that by the LBA/EIA were already a 1000 years apart. So if multiple V13 groups had this founder effect, and no others, it seems to imply Urnfield was V13. I don't see how you can reconcile multi-ethnic urnifield with the pattern of V13.
    How can you look at the Urnfield cultural system, which encompasses (the ancestors of) Italic, Etruscan, Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Illyrian and Thracian ethnolinguistic groupings amongst ovarious and them come to the conclusion they were not multi-ethnic and that they all must've carried E-v13 to a high degree?

    It's hard to say with a cultural zone that unanimously cremated their dead, but I think that for the most part most Urnfield culture groups were genetically quite close to their predecessor cultures, at least the Central Europeans variants.

    The only thing it would imply is that the Urnfield related groups spreading into Pannonia and the Balkans had E-V13 clades in decent to high numbers, not that the entire Urnfield cultural system would've had so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Then we have the second leak 1 month ago again from Stamov which has results from Late Neolithic Bulgaria and most of samples are G2a with one Chalcolithic R1b.
    This second leak, did it include some other results except the one from Late Neolithic Bulgaria ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    This second leak, did it include some other results except the one from Late Neolithic Bulgaria ?
    You can check it here: https://youtu.be/KzAL0ssXwgc?t=971

    He also posted the results on a website, but i forgot the URL address, Bulgarians perhaps can help here in finding the website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    He also posted the results on a website, but i forgot the URL address, Bulgarians perhaps can help here in finding the website.
    could be this: https://proizhod.nauka.bg/2020/10/06/news/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    In the website it's claimed that the samples 69 and 70 from EBA Kazanlak are burials from Proto-Thracians. No Y-DNA is listed, perhaps they did it on intention, they don't want to reveal it yet?



    Samples from the Bronze and Iron Ages, Bulgaria.

    The results of the Ezero culture, from Southeastern Bulgaria, which is from the early Bronze Age and which seems to connect the people of this culture with the future Hittites and Trojans. Some of these ancient groups from the Bronze Age in one way or another have survived to this day in our country, modern Bulgarians.

    Samples 69 and 70 are from the supposed Thracian burials from the region of Kazanlak and are from the epoch of the appearance of the Thracians on the Balkan Peninsula. They show a close connection of the Thracian groups from the region of Kazanlak with the Indo-European groups from the Pontic steppe.

    Support us to continue the study of Thracian DNA and to clarify the connection of the Thracians, Trojans and Hittites with modern Bulgarians! Our preliminary research shows an ancient contribution to the genomes of modern Bulgarians.

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  14. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post

    I see this as one more step towards breaking connection of E-V13 with Anatolia and Near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    In the website it's claimed that the samples 69 and 70 from EBA Kazanlak are burials from Proto-Thracians. No Y-DNA is listed, perhaps they did it on intention, they don't want to reveal it yet?

    That fun it is that exactly the samples 69 and 70 were not males or not high coverage enough to predict the haplotype. But if they are too heavily steppe shifted, I would assume they were rather part of the steppe contribution (Thraco-Cimmerian fusion), rather than Gava-representatives. But like with Germanics and Celts, the cremation horizon of the majority of continental IE is a big issue, because its like one big gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I see this as one more step towards breaking connection of E-V13 with Anatolia and Near East.
    Eveything is a question of timing, but the options for a late entry into Europe, after the inital Neolithic settlement, get slim indeed, if you mean that. But it looked that way for quite some time. Anatolia was only a stopover for the ancestors and relatives of E-V13 when entering Europe.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-02-2020 at 02:00 PM.

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    The presence of E-L618 among some Levantines, Albanians/Northern-Greeks and from Cardial Farmers from Croatia is uncanny.

    They came via maritime route and landed on Epirus and South Albania then colonized Croatia and the trajectory was toward Western Europe west to Spain where the actual E-V13 mutation was found.

    That's a clear case in my opinion.

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