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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The presence of E-L618 among some Levantines, Albanians/Northern-Greeks and from Cardial Farmers from Croatia is uncanny.

    They came via maritime route and landed on Epirus and South Albania then colonized Croatia and the trajectory was toward Western Europe west to Spain where the actual E-V13 mutation was found.

    That's a clear case in my opinion.
    That's true, but don't forget Lengyel-Sopot. I did look just recently more carefully at the variation of E1b in various places of Central Europe and its actually not like E-V13 was there alone at all. Related E1b1b clades are practically everywhere, just at a much lower frequency. But I guess that's in some places local survival of people like the Michelsberger and related people even. Probably unrelated to the more recent spread of E-V13, but who knows for sure without a detailed analysis.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-02-2020 at 02:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's true, but don't forget Lengyel-Sopot. I did look just recently more carefully at the variation of E1b in various places of Central Europe and its actually not like E-V13 was there alone at all. Related E1b1b clades are practically everywhere, just at a much lower frequency. But I guess that's in some places local survival of people like the Michelsberger and related people even. Probably unrelated to the more recent spread of E-V13, but who knows for sure without a detailed analysis.
    Acording to Stephen Shennan, and his claims are very recent, from 2018, Michelsbergers were migrants from Mediterranean basin, South-West, so he probably means they were Cardial Farmers intruding further inland.

    But, yes, logically speaking Sopot-Lengyel should be the first candidate for the birthplace of E-V13. The second one is North-East Spain => Michelsberger => following the Danube rivers => North Carpathians.

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  5. #293
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    The thing about Michelsberg is we have DNA from it and they were Haplogroup I and R1 and autosomaly they had a ridiculous amount of WHG. They were originaly probably subneolithic WHG leftovers hiding in the western alps and then either by choise or because they got pushed out by the Cardium pottery guys from the south they expanded very violently north into southern Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Actually, that would be the least problematic aspect, because Urnfield seems to have been multi-ethnic religious-cultural phenomenon and can be divided in different cultural provinces.
    ...
    But of course, that doesn't mean that Urnfield as a whole was E-V13 at all or that even the groups spreading the most like Proto-Thracian were exclusively E-V13, both not.
    Is it fair to summarize like this: V13 lives in border region of Romania, Moldova and Ukraine. Here it gets influenced by Urnfield culture of Central Europe during MBA/LBA and forms the Gava culture. At the LBA/EIA transition (1200BC) some event, maybe climatic, maybe arrival from other peoples from the east, causes the E-V13 population to move west and south in a way that mimicks the Slavic migration 1500 years later. Here they form the Dacian, Thracia, Getian, Moesian, ... ethnicities just like the Slavs would form Serbs, Croats, Bulgars etc. Their arrival displaces local peoples, mainly speakers of Greek-like languages who move on to Anatolia and Greece. The ones moving from Eastern-Europe to Central Europe might have been spread further by Celts, but the presence of V13 in Western Europe would probably be something of a later date?

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  8. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Is it fair to summarize like this: V13 lives in border region of Romania, Moldova and Ukraine.
    I would just add especially Eastern Slovakia, probably Southern Poland. Funnily their habitat might have been somewhat similar to that of later Vlach-Slavic people, which lived beside larger ethnicities as well. Compare with the Carpathian Rus or Rusyn:
    https://cdn.britannica.com/46/185346...n-homeland.jpg

    That's actually not that far from the later proposed Gava central regions.
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...250-750-BC.ppm

    If these Gava-core was Proto-Thracian, it would fit perfectly into the linguistic trees in which Thracian and Slavic are supposed to have been neighbours, because the direct neighbour was the Chernoles culture which is most likely Proto (Balto-) Slavic:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...und_750_BC.png

    They would have bordered both Proto-Slavs and Scythians/Iranians.

    Here it gets influenced by Urnfield culture of Central Europe during MBA/LBA and forms the Gava culture.
    I think its also possible that the Urnfield culture came up by a fusion of Carpathian and Eastern Central European traditions, so probably the role was more proactive, to put it that way.

    At the LBA/EIA transition (1200BC) some event, maybe climatic, maybe arrival from other peoples from the east, causes the E-V13 population to move west and south in a way that mimicks the Slavic migration 1500 years later. Here they form the Dacian, Thracia, Getian, Moesian, ... ethnicities just like the Slavs would form Serbs, Croats, Bulgars etc. Their arrival displaces local peoples, mainly speakers of Greek-like languages who move on to Anatolia and Greece. The ones moving from Eastern-Europe to Central Europe might have been spread further by Celts, but the presence of V13 in Western Europe would probably be something of a later date?
    I think the reason for the migrations was multi-causal, but we see it with the Bronze Age collapse and the Sea people, that people were on the move and one group pushed the other. They most certainly profited from technological progress made and the new social-ideological movements Urnfield represents. We have better Bronze product, high end sword types like Naue II and the quick adoption, improvement and distribution of iron working technologies. Actually Gava was at the core of these advancements, huge fortified settlements like Teleac prove this, they were among the first in Europe to begin the mass production of iron weapons. Nevertheless, Teleac was destroyed in an attack which might equal the situation of Troy in the Mediterranean. It must have been quite some siege and battle.
    So there was pressure on their centres or internal disputes.

    On the other hand I guess that E-V13 spread as early as that westward, but even more so later, with Eastern Hallstatt influencing, once again, in the developed Iron Age, to Western Hallstatt. Eastern Hallstatt should have more E-V13 than the Western, probably largely Proto-Celtic sphere. This was also because of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which spread steppe and Carpathian ancestry directly to Pannonia and beyond, was instrumental for the formation of the Hallstatt culture, after this collapse ("Yurtification", nomadic inhabitants of Pannonia, older farmsites left).

    But yes, I think they spread pretty much like the Slavs later. Pretty much the same way and with the same consequences. Even the disruption in Pannonia being repeated: First Slavs move in, just for being subjugated by steppe people. Same happened with the Urnfield people which came under the "Thraco-Cimmerian" horizon. So I think Eastern pressures from the steppe were very real too, together with the technological advances and expansive ideology. Thracians were the result of this fusion. So this makes it even more likely that the South Eastern Urnfield groups were heavy in E-V13:
    - The earlier inhabitants were not
    - The Thracian migration was a replacement, but no complete one and with a strong steppe component most likely.

    So if the numbers of the Urnfield groups moving into the Carpathians were poor in E-V13, it would be even harder to explain. Like Hawk said, without the smoking gun of actual samples showing high frequencies for E-V13, its still just an elimination game.

    However, if the single E-V13 found in earlier Bronze Age times by the Hungarian project were close to the later Gava core zone, that would be helpful to know already, especially if it led to an important, surviving V13 lineage.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-02-2020 at 04:22 PM.

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    Romania/Moldavia/Ukraine is too east IMO. Low chances being the original homeland.

  11. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Romania/Moldavia/Ukraine is too east IMO. Low chances being the original homeland.
    That's just where Gava was at home and its the Urnfield related group, centre of the "Fluted Ware" horizon, which influenced Thracians the most. Their original centre was rather more Western though indeed, Eastern Slovakia-Ruthenia, North Eastern Hungary, North Western Romania. To Moldova-Ukraine seems to have been more some kind of influence-expansion, which is why its also called Gáva-Holigrady.

    The Gáva-Holigrady culture was a late Bronze Age culture of Eastern Slovakia, Western Ukraine (Zakarpats'ka Oblast and Dnister river basin), Northwestern Romania and Northeastern Hungary.

    It is considered a subtype of the Urnfield culture.

    Gava-Holigrady culture is named after an archaeological settlement Gava in Northeastern Hungary and an archaeological site Holigrady (Голігради) in Ukrainian Ternopil Oblast.

    In Slovakia, the culture has originated in the early twentieth century BC.

    Gáva people lived in settlements and castles that they built in the Slovakian and Transylvanian uplands.

    Gava-Holigrad people are considered to be of Thracian ethnicity.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A...igrady_culture

    They had the leverage because of their technological head start in the region. Let's put it differently, which region and group do you propose which did influence Basarabi culture?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarabi_culture

    The Basarabi culture in Rumania, which existed in the first half of the first millennium B.C., was characteristic of the Thracians. Its distinguishing features are polished black ware, including cups, bowls, and goblets, and settlements—both fortified and unfortified—of ground-level wooden buildings plastered with clay. The pottery, which reveals contact with the culture of local Bronze Age tribes, is decorated with fluting, with stamped and engraved geometric designs, and with white inlays.

    During the sixth and fifth centuries B.C., Thracian art was influenced somewhat by Scythian culture. The Thracian animal style, which flourished from the sixth to third centuries, has characteristics that distinguish it from other animal styles. For example, the Thracians ornamented plaques and helmets of gold, silver, and bronze with naive and expressive generalized representations of birds, animals, and horsemen and depictions of fighting animals. They usually covered these designs with patterns of circles, dots, or short lines.
    https://encyclopedia2.thefreediction...racian+culture

    There were influences from the West on them, yes, but none which would reflect anything which could be a mass migration, like that of Gava-inspired Urnfield groups or the steppe intrusion. So if, like it seems to be, the Daco-Thracian sphere was the most strongly E-V13, I see a problem with another scenario. Its easy, considering how many migrations took place, to find an alternative for a single region, but looking at the wide later E-V13 distribution, this limits the options imho.

    Any Western or Southern group would have had a massive, truly massive influence on Basarabi. And while I think Basarabi had a lot of Western influences, I'd say not replacement level.

    But I'm open minded.

    Edit: By the way, Bosut-Basarabi ceramic together with stronger horses, horse-gear and weaponry in the "Cimmerian style" made it even beyond Austria, up to Bohemia and Switzerland:
    Entlang der Donau gelangte rei-
    ternomadisches Zaumzeug „kimmerischer" Prägung bis in
    die Schweiz (Zürich-Alpenquai) und nach Böhmen
    (Krteno)
    Also Italy and basically most of the later Hallstatt sphere was affected. Conclusion of the author, absolutely justified:

    Das Modell „kimmerischer" und/oder skythischer Landnahme im
    Karpatenbecken und entsprechender kriegerischer Vorstöße
    weiter westwärts erscheint demnach nicht als „das historisch
    Unwahrscheinliche" (H. Parzinger73) oder als „pseudohistorisches
    Hilfskonstrukt" (C. Metzner-Nebelsick74), sondern darf
    nach wie vor als durchaus wahrscheinliche Variante gelten.
    Die gegenteilige Annahme, wonach ausschließlich
    Rezeptionsvorgänge und Handelskontakte dafür verantwortlich
    waren, dass „kimmerisch" und skythisch geprägte
    Sachkultur nach Mitteleuropa gelangt sind,75 dürfte demgegenüber
    erheblich zu kurz greifen
    https://pdfslide.net/documents/rudol...0015-0036.html

    So improved iron weaponry and horsemanship came together to the West. It is quite clear to me that this wave of new innovations hit the Proto-Celts too in different times, again and again. First in Western Hallstatt, then again with La Tene. And in this context of steppe-Carpathian influences and the formation of Hallstatt, I'd assume E-V13 from the Carpathian sphere were moving to the West too, like mentioned, especially as traders, specialists, probably even elite and warriors.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-02-2020 at 05:46 PM.

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    I'm not sure if I agree with the idea there was steppe pressure on Urnfield so early on, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, whatever it actually was, appeared centuries after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with the idea there was steppe pressure on Urnfield so early on, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, whatever it actually was, appeared centuries after.
    That's correct, I think the primary reason was that the Urnfield group used their advantages, the improved technology and expansive ideology, in their favour. Its not like you need a special additional motivation if getting such a chance in prehistorical times. This was really a time window in which they had the edge over their Southern neighbours. It wasn't always that way.

    However, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was very important. In my opinion Urnfield was a shift from North -> South, bringing Southern Urnfield groups into the Carpathians, Balkans and Pannonia. The Cimmerian push shifted rather from East -> West, brought mixed steppe-Carpathian groups of Thracian-related people to the West, like described before, minimum to Austria, probably as far as Bohemia and Switzerland.
    So these are, actually, two different, independent pushes. What caused the first, we don't know, but I guess the opportunity for Northern tribes to grab rich and fertile new territories, getting away from tough neighbours, would be enough motivation anyway.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-02-2020 at 05:52 PM.

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    This is the Bronze Age cremation spread burials in Balkans.



    https://www.orea.oeaw.ac.at/en/resea...e-burials-cbab

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