E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

[xripkan]

Ancient Macedonians were the very Barbarian version of Doric-northwest Greek speaking world. Genetically they would have been as You said between Bulgaria IA and The samples We got from Myceneans, so in Some way mostly EEF. The steppe-Iran N/CHG ratios would be a secondary issue. For attic-ionic Greeks everyone who did not belonged in this branch It was a Barbarian. Now what lineages they belonged to, thats a Hard thing to discuss here. Sadly, The banana republic that we live, does not have The money and power(or Even interestet I would say) for researches and issues related With genetics and archeology. We are going to discuss this subject for the next 10-15 years at least.

In my opinion the most possible scenario is that they were an ancient greek people. Due to geography they had developped a different political system than southern ancient Greeks (but not unique in Hellenic world since Thessalians had a similar political system) and they had more interactions with ancient Balkanic peoples which probably had a cultural impact.
Of course we need proves from archeaology and genetics as you said to be 100% sure. Based on our data we can't reject (neither adopt) the arguments that they were a branch under Graeco-Phrygians separated earlier from southern Greeks.
I agree that it's a pitty there is not an intensive research not only on this issue but also about Dorians, Sea peoples etc.

[Hawk]

I think we should all agree that E-V13 entered Greece during Late Bronze Age, both subclade age and archeological data support this scenario.

Atleast Z5018/Z5017 subclades. Older subclades might have as well joined btw, we often forget how dynamic people are. Then we get surprised by aDNA.

[Bane]

I think we should all agree that E-V13 entered Greece during Late Bronze Age, both subclade age and archeological data support this scenario.

Atleast Z5018/Z5017 subclades. Older subclades might have as well joined btw, we often forget how dynamic people are. Then we get surprised by aDNA.

I agree.

[Johnny ola]

In my opinion the most possible scenario is that they were an ancient greek people. Due to geography they had developped a different political system than southern ancient Greeks (but not unique in Hellenic world since Thessalians had a similar political system) and they had more interactions with ancient Balkanic peoples which probably had a cultural impact.
Of course we need proves from archeaology and genetics as you said to be 100% sure. Based on our data we can't reject (neither adopt) the arguments that they were a branch under Graeco-Phrygians separated earlier from southern Greeks.
I agree that it's a pitty there is not an intensive research not only on this issue but also about Dorians, Sea peoples etc.

It seems like this.Also Macedonia,Northern Epirus,Northern Thessaly were never part of the Mycaenean culture-civilization.We don't know much..about what it was happened there during the BA period.It is very likely somewhere in the Pindus mountains or even in the region of northwest Macedonia to have been the Proto-Greek homeland.
Yes,it is very likely that Greeks,Thracians,Phrygians,Macedonians arrived all of them from a steppe related culture,prolly somewhere in modern southeast/eastern EU.KMK-Babyno or Catacomb is prolly the answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-...d_ware_culture

[xripkan]

It seems like this.Also Macedonia,Northern Epirus,Northern Thessaly were never part of the Mycaenean culture-civilization.We don't know much..about what it was happened there during the BA period.It is very likely somewhere in the Pindus mountains or even in the region of northwest Macedonia to have been the Proto-Greek homeland.
Yes,it is very likely that Greeks,Thracians,Phrygians,Macedonians arrived all of them from a steppe related culture,prolly somewhere in modern southeast/eastern EU.KMK-Babyno or Catacomb is prolly the answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-...d_ware_culture

What do you think about E-V13? If it was a minor haplogroup in Greece then Proto-Thracians had different origin than Proto-Greeks and they belonged to different brances. Maybe Proto-Thracians were related to eastern Urnfield.

[DgidguBidgu]

See here

Those Slavs brought predominantly, but not only, R1a (unlike Balkans where Slavs brought predominantly I-Y3120).

You gave me Wikipedia as the main reference with a poorly written text, supporting old unproven theories from the time of Romanticism. These are some total fabrications.
The nonsense about the "Slavs" and some big space migrations have long been denied by experts in scientific literature and have not been proven by DNA so far, and there are no real historical documents to prove them.
Funny Quotes: "The migration of Slavic peoples from their homeland began in roughly the late 4th to early 5th century, as Germanic peoples started moving into the territory of the Roman Empire."
"Many natives were enslaved by the Slavs"!?! "," Romanised aborigines" The more important question here is: What kind of language they spoke before to be attacked and enslaved by the Romans? Here I think the Wikipedia "author" must enter to the schizophrenic chronicle if we answer to this simple question.
How wordy and unscientific is this text , as if I were reading fiction. Apparently someone is trying to replace the real history with free essay. I am not impressed.
Apparently it doesn't matter who starts movement from where, who attacks whom and in whose lands he enters. It is not convenient to specify, but it is more convenient to write in a speculative tone and content that does not give any specifics, may be because they were part of "various tribal alliances".


About Slavic haplogroups: You want me to believe that these haplogroups appear for the first time in the 6th century at Europe?
Excuse me, but what stopped the movement of these people in Europe in any direction before the specified time? There was no such thing like migration before the 5th century in Europe?
Every DNA study so far refutes you, even the Tollense battle refutes you.




If you believe to these theories about the emergence of new nations, only due to the replacement of an old name with a new one, then by this logic there were no Germans, or there were no Iranians before their new names appeared.
In addition, we have significant works and old history sources proving my claims and not yours.


R.G. Latham: "The older the toponyms in Germany, the clearer their Slavic character" p.29.
I think the "Romanised aborigines" have something to say here too but maybe some other time.
R.G. Latham, The Germania of Tacitus, Taylor, Walton and Marbely,
London, 1851;
We also have the statement of Theophylact Simokata, who says: Sclavini, or Getae because they were called so in antiquity.
Those R1a you are referring to, may not be old Slavs, but Slavonized Balts, for example.
Your theory is cracking from every scientific point of view - historical-documentary, linguistic, genetic.
The terminology for Slavs must be corrected: to clarify who really are the Slavs.
Whether old South Slavs or the new East and North Slavicized Finno-Ugric tribes , Balts...

[Bane]

The terminology for Slavs must be corrected: to clarify who really are the Slavs.
Whether old South Slavs or the new East and North Slavicized Finno-Ugric tribes , Balts...

With this part I somewhat agree.
With everything else I have to say I don't agree. But this thread is neither the time nor the place to discuss Slavic migrations.

[Johnny ola]

What do you think about E-V13? If it was a minor haplogroup in Greece then Proto-Thracians had different origin than Proto-Greeks and they belonged to different brances. Maybe Proto-Thracians were related to eastern Urnfield.

I think they share common origins but Thracians received a stronger Urnfield related influence, while in Greece this might happened mostly in the northern areas. But without samples we cannot say much. Thracians were prolly a combination of R1b-Z2103 and EV13.

[Hawk]

I would say Illyrians like Autariates, Ardiaei and Dardanii had quite a lot of E-V13, especially Autariates, the ones who had the strongest Urnfield influence. Autariates were practicing cremation quite late until classical times.

[DgidguBidgu]

I think they share common origins but Thracians received a stronger Urnfield related influence, while in Greece this might happened mostly in the northern areas. But without samples we cannot say much. Thracians were prolly a combination of R1b-Z2103 and EV13.

I believe that Thracians can not be represented only by R1b-Z2103 and EV13.
They were too many tribes covering a large area, including lands even outside Europe.

We must include J too here for the very good reasons:

"One of the haplogroup J subclades (J-M12) dis-plays frequency distribution similar to that of the aforementioned E-M35 sub-clade. This is probably, a consequence of the same microevolutionary event,namely, an expansion from South-Eastern to continental Europe following theDanube waterways during the Neolithic [14]. From archaeological point of view,this population can be associated with Vincha farmers. However, this haplogroupis widely distributed on the territory of Anatolia, Mideast Arab, Morocco, Su-dan and Ethiopia, Persia, Georgia, Armenia, Uzbek-Kazakhstan-Kirgizstan upto the Tarim River Valley, too. Thus this has to be a megapopulation in thattime. We hypothesized that it can be only the Thracian one – from West Balkan(Dardanians, Illyrians, Pelagonians, Macedonians, etc.), North Balkan (Bessians,Gateans, Dacians, Misians, Medians, Thracoiranian Cimmerians, Seenians, etc.),South Balkan (Brigians, Peonians, Triballians, Odrysians, Pelasgians, etc.), overall Anatolia (Vithinians, Frisians, Trojans) and at the East Black Sea coast(East Medians, Frigo-Armenians, Parthians, Massagetes, etc.), covering all NorthMesopotamia, Lebanon, Palestine and North Egypt (Mitanni, Phillistinians, So-uth-Pelasgians and many others). For Thracians Herodotus had written that theyare “. . . the greatest and most populous on Earth (after the Indians)”. Besidesthis, Herodotus accounted that the Greeks absorbed an earlier non-Greek popu-lation (Pelasgians) and that the Greek history is based on their traditions [5]."