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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post

    The cemetery in Burgajet dates to the 4th-3rd centuries BC.
    Thank you, good to know this.

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    "There are authors who say that the Moesi, the Brygi, and the Thyni crossed over from Europe, and that from them are descended the peoples called the Mysi, Phryges, and Bithyni."

    Pliny the Elder
    Natural History
    1-11, 5.41.1

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    There were still Brygians living in Albania in 100BC:

    "This country has a large lake they call Lychnites. The next island, some say, is where Diomedes ended his life, whence its name Diomedeia. Beyond these are barbarian Brygians. Toward the sea is Epidamnos, a Greek city, that Kerkyra apparently founded. Beyond the Brygians dwell the so-called Encheleians, whom Kadmos once ruled. Neighboring them is Apollonia,"

    Pseudo Scymnus or Pausanias of Damascus
    Circuit of the Earth
    100 BCE


    Lychnites = Ohrid
    Epidamnos = Durrës

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Bell Beaker was first hypothesized to be the result of mass migrations of a material culture based on craniometry and the crude use of other methods of physical anthropology. This set of data was rejected because of many methodological problems and the fact that some sites showed continuity with older populations and others discontinuity. Archaeological theories rejected the mass migration model based on the only available data about any prehistoric population: material finds from many different sites. aDNA studies didn't invalidate archaeological theories, nor did they allow for a comeback of the mass migration model. They allowed for migration to be re-included in modern theories and they provided more nuance to them which in turn allowed us to move beyond the overly simplistic migration vs. non-migration model.

    Martin Furholt (2021), Mobility and Social Change: Understanding the European Neolithic Period after the Archaeogenetic Revolution, Journal of Archaeological Research:

    The main problem and source of confusion with these three archaeological units—Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beakers—is that they have traditionally been conceptualized using the model of “archaeological culture,” as discussed in the introduction. This has led, repeatedly, to a faulty reification of these units of classification to represent distinct culturally uniform groups of people (see Furholt 2014). This reification has dominated archaeological discourse during the 20th century—with an interlude by processual archaeologists such as Clarke (1970) and Shennan (1976)—and has unfortunately infected the migration discourse connected to the new aDNA data presented since 2015 (Allentoft et al. 2015; Haak et al. 2015). (..) To use the archaeological culture model for those units, say, the LBK, to impose a coherence of specific forms of material culture with specific forms of houses, settlement patterns, burial rites, etc., is a stark simplification, but it is not such a blatant misrepresentation as it is for Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beakers. (..) All three units of classification (Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beakers) are not compatible with the monothetic archaeological culture concept.

    The migration narrative fell out of favor in the context of processual archaeology, in which inner-social transformations were highlighted and Corded Ware and Bell Beakers were conceptualized as “packages” of symbols related to social groups and ideologies (Clarke 1970; Damm 1991; Furholt 2003; Müller 2002; Shennan 1976; Strahm 2002). However, when Kristiansen (1989) and Anthony (1990) revived migration as an explanatory framework, they chose the Jutlandish Single Grave culture—a Corded Ware subunit—and the Yamnaya culture as examples. Nevertheless, the archaeological mainstream remained highly skeptical of migration, with a few notable exceptions (Burmeister 2000; Prien 2005), until the aDNA studies were published in 2015.

    What is more, Olalde et al. (2018) published a large set of Bell Beaker samples, which showed that the majority of the eastern Bell Beakers (in Germany, Czech Republic, Netherlands, England, and Scotland) also carried large portions of steppe ancestry, in contrast to individuals connected to western Bell Beaker contexts (in France, Italy, Spain, and Portugal), who for several centuries carried much less or no steppe ancestry, which suggests an ongoing migration stream not congruent with the borders of archaeological units of classification.

    While almost all male individuals from Yamnaya burials share the haplogroups R1b-Z2103 and Q1a2 (Wang et al. 2019), the great majority of all Corded Ware males share a different haplogroup, R1a (Mathieson et al. 2018). R1b, but of a different variant (P312), is the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroup among male burials from Bell Beaker contexts (Olalde et al. 2018). Thus the core of the Kristiansen et al. narrative—Yamnaya males migrating into central Europe and constituting the new Corded Ware complex—is contradicted by the data.

    In many contexts Corded Ware pottery was produced alongside traditional styles with not much tangible change in social practices connected to these novel vessel forms (Beckerman 2015; Iversen 2015; Kroon et al. 2019; Salzman 2010; Suter 2017). In others, their occurrence was connected to changes in the settlement pattern (Hecht 2007; Hübner 2005; Müller 1999; Schultrich 2019). The same is true for Bell Beakers (Kleijne 2019; Vander Linden 2006).

    The whole setting of the third millennium BC in Europe is one that is better explained by a strengthening of translocal relations than by the traditional mass migration model. Whereas the latter has a unidirectional bias and regards human movement as a finite process—a person or group moves from A to B, the anthropological concept of translocality (Furholt 2018a; Greiner 2010; Greiner and Sakdapolrak 2013) highlights how mobile human individuals continuously engage with both the new and the old communities.
    Ok, apparently archeologists are so reluctant to admit they were wrong that they call migration 'strenghtening translocal relations'. Whatever works for them I guess. But the main conclusion is that there were older theories involving migration, they were replaced by theories denying migration, and adna has proven there was migration. For the Dorians olders theories supposed migration, but current theories deny migration. I don't think it's farfetched to suspect current theories of Dorians suffer from the same problems as the ones on BB.
    Last edited by rafc; 03-01-2021 at 07:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The Dorians are not a prehistoric population. We know a lot about their language (Doric Greek), the way they perceived themselves and they way others perceived them. Doric Greek preserves elements of Proto-Greek and doesn't have a pre-Greek substrate which is different from other Greek dialects. For Doric Greek to have preserved Proto-Greek elements and have the same pre-Greek substrate, the speakers of Doric Greek could not have come from anywhere north of the Mycenaean fringes (Epirus, northern Thessaly, western Macedonia). If the Dorians were part of a "mass migration" from the central or the northern Balkans, they would have introduced a non-Greek language in Greece which even if they were "hellenized" eventually, would create a very different Greek dialect than Doric Greek.
    I was arguing that there had been a movement of people from NW-Greece to the rest of Greece, and that these people were the basis for what in classical times was known as the Dorians as opposed to the common thinking that says Dorian invasions didn't happen. I didn't write they carried V13 are came from the Northern Balkans. However, I don't think it's impossible either. You suppose already that people outside of the Mycenaean world did not speak Greek, are we sure of that? For all we know Greek was spoken a lot more north (and east) than in classical times and was replaced there by newcomers speaking something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    If some E-V13 kin groups joined some Dorian groups before they moved to the south will be answered by aDNA studies, but a theory which sees the Dorians as a people who brought E-V13 to Greece from the central/northern Balkans in a mass migration/invasion isn't plausible.
    The V13 being dragged along by Dorians sounds like plausible scenario, but if you make a big genetic distinction between Dorians and 'V13 kin groups', what haplogroups do you think Dorians carried?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    We should look to a gradual migration in order understand the introduction of E-V13 and other lineages in Greece. For example, Albanian migrations didn't happen as a single event but as a series of events with smaller and larger migrations over 500 years and they're still continuing. I consider the same scenario to be the most plausible for E-V13. Illyrians, Paeonians, Thracians and others from their many subgroups moved to Greece over a period of more than 800 years as workers, traders, mercenaries, slaves, students etc.
    Yes, this is also the scenario I favor.

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    From 160 AD on Brygians taking posession of Durrës:


    "The consuls crossed safely to Dyrrachium, which some persons, by reason of the following error, consider the same as Epidamnus. A barbarian king of the region, Epidamnus by name, built a city on the sea-coast and named it after himself. Dyrrachus, the son of his daughter and of Neptune (as is supposed), added a dockyard to it which he named Dyrrachium. When the brothers of this Dyrrachus made war against him, Hercules, who was returning from Erythea, formed an alliance with him for a part of his territory; wherefore the Dyrrachians claim Hercules as their founder because he had a share of their land, not that they repudiate Dyrrachus, but because they pride themselves on Hercules even more as a god.

    In the battle which took place it is said that Hercules killed Ionius, the son of Dyrrachus, by mistake, and that after performing the funeral rites he threw the body into the sea in order that it might bear his name.

    At a later period the Briges, returning from Phrygia, took possession of the city and the surrounding country. They were supplanted by the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe, who were displaced in their turn by the Liburnians, another Illyrian tribe, who were in the habit of making piratical expeditions against their neighbors, with very swift ships. Hence the Romans call swift ships liburnicoe, because these were the first ones they came in conflict with.

    The people who had been expelled from Dyrrachium by the Liburnians procured the aid of the Corcyreans, who then ruled the sea, and drove out the Liburnians. The Corcyreans mingled their own colonists with them and thus it came to be considered a Greek port; but the Corcyreans changed its name, because they considered it unpropitious, and called it Epidamnus from the town just above it, and Thucydides gives it that name also.

    Nevertheless, the former name prevailed finally and it is now called Dyrrachium.


    2.6.39
    Appian
    Civil Wars


    So here, we have a claim by Appian that they came from Phrygia, which doesn't make sense, it makes more sense that this detail is his addition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I was arguing that there had been a movement of people from NW-Greece to the rest of Greece, and that these people were the basis for what in classical times was known as the Dorians as opposed to the common thinking that says Dorian invasions didn't happen. I didn't write they carried V13 are came from the Northern Balkans. However, I don't think it's impossible either. You suppose already that people outside of the Mycenaean world did not speak Greek, are we sure of that? For all we know Greek was spoken a lot more north (and east) than in classical times and was replaced there by newcomers speaking something else.



    The V13 being dragged along by Dorians sounds like plausible scenario, but if you make a big genetic distinction between Dorians and 'V13 kin groups', what haplogroups do you think Dorians carried?



    Yes, this is also the scenario I favor.
    These are some of the subclades found in Peloponessus

    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022>Y150909
    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2 979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978
    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018
    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>E-L241
    E-V13-Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S297 2>Z16661>S2978

    Apuglians E-V13 is exclusively E-V13 Z5018/S979 as well.

    IMO, the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age spread by a specific group who had E-V13 in the percentages ranging somewhere from 50-90% and scattering around can explain the spread, not the likes of Medieval Arvanites, Vlachs who have less or equal E-V13 percentage themselves than actual Mainland Greeks.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-01-2021 at 08:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    From 160 AD on Brygians taking posession of Durrës:


    "The consuls crossed safely to Dyrrachium, which some persons, by reason of the following error, consider the same as Epidamnus. A barbarian king of the region, Epidamnus by name, built a city on the sea-coast and named it after himself. Dyrrachus, the son of his daughter and of Neptune (as is supposed), added a dockyard to it which he named Dyrrachium. When the brothers of this Dyrrachus made war against him, Hercules, who was returning from Erythea, formed an alliance with him for a part of his territory; wherefore the Dyrrachians claim Hercules as their founder because he had a share of their land, not that they repudiate Dyrrachus, but because they pride themselves on Hercules even more as a god.

    In the battle which took place it is said that Hercules killed Ionius, the son of Dyrrachus, by mistake, and that after performing the funeral rites he threw the body into the sea in order that it might bear his name.

    At a later period the Briges, returning from Phrygia, took possession of the city and the surrounding country. They were supplanted by the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe, who were displaced in their turn by the Liburnians, another Illyrian tribe, who were in the habit of making piratical expeditions against their neighbors, with very swift ships. Hence the Romans call swift ships liburnicoe, because these were the first ones they came in conflict with.

    The people who had been expelled from Dyrrachium by the Liburnians procured the aid of the Corcyreans, who then ruled the sea, and drove out the Liburnians. The Corcyreans mingled their own colonists with them and thus it came to be considered a Greek port; but the Corcyreans changed its name, because they considered it unpropitious, and called it Epidamnus from the town just above it, and Thucydides gives it that name also.

    Nevertheless, the former name prevailed finally and it is now called Dyrrachium.


    2.6.39
    Appian
    Civil Wars


    So here, we have a claim by Appian that they came from Phrygia, which doesn't make sense, it makes more sense that this detail is his addition.
    That is one story of the corfu - durres link with Liburnians ..........there is another

    Ancient geography was the land of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast in Europe, in modern Croatia, whose borders shifted according to the extent of liburnian dominance at a given time between 11th and 1st century BC. Domination of the liburnian Thalassocracy in the Adriatic sea was confirmed by several ancient authors, but archaeologists have identified the areas of their material culture, in the North Dalmatia, Kvarner and Eastern Istria.
    The liburnian cultural group developed at the end of the bronze age after the Balkan-Pannonian migrations, and during the iron age in the region, which borders race, Krka, and Zrmanja rivers, including the nearby Islands. This area lay mainly on the coast and on the numerous Islands. Her continental boundaries were marked by rivers and mountains: the race Učka, Gorski Kotar, peaks of Velebit mountain Mons Baebius, Krka, Zrmanja and, with a small area in the North-East it borders with Butisnica Krka Čikola and Kosovcica, the city of Promona modern Tepljuh near the city of Drnis area. Thus, it is adjacent on the North-West with the Histri, on the North Iapodian and in the South-Eastern Dalmatian cultural groups.

    Liburnian culture have different characteristics and are significantly different from their neighbors. Its isolation and special qualities are due mainly to its geographical isolation from the hinterland and its orientation towards the sea, important for traffic and territorial connection. Naval focus-shaped liburnian ethnic development on the Indo-European basis with the transfer of Mediterranean cultural traditions as an independent ethnic community, separated from neighboring peoples, but having evident similarities and links with the wider Illyrian and Adriatic territories. Liburnians skilled in navigation allowed them to hold navigable routes along the Eastern Adriatic coast with strategic points, such as the Islands of Hvar and Lastovo in the Central Adriatic and Corfu 8th century BC in the Ionian sea, while they already had colonies at the Western Adriatic coast, especially in the area of Picenum, from the beginning of the iron age. From 9 to 6 century there was certain Koine - cultural unity in the Adriatic sea, with a total Liburninan seal, whose dominion was as political and economic power in the Adriatic sea over several centuries.

    According to Strabo, V, 269, in Liburnians were the masters of the island, the island of Corfu, to 735 BC, when they left it, under pressure of Corinthian ruler Hersikrates, during the period of Corinthian expansion to South Italy, Sicily and the Ionian sea.

    and your post in
    https://research-management.mq.edu.a...er_version.pdf

    and another

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Burial_Mound


    A thalassocracy or thalattocracy (from Classical Greek: θάλασσα, romanized: thalassa (Attic Greek: θάλαττα, romanized: thalatta) transl. 'sea', and Ancient Greek: κρατεῖν, romanized: kratein, lit. 'power'; giving Koinē Greek: θαλασσοκρατία, romanized: thalassokratia, lit. 'sea power') is a state with primarily maritime realms, an empire at sea, or a seaborne empire.[1] Traditional thalassocracies seldom dominate interiors, even in their home territories. Examples of this were the Phoenician states of Tyre, Sidon and Carthage, and the Italian maritime republics of Venice and Genoa of the Mediterranean
    Last edited by vettor; 03-01-2021 at 09:58 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I was arguing that there had been a movement of people from NW-Greece to the rest of Greece, and that these people were the basis for what in classical times was known as the Dorians as opposed to the common thinking that says Dorian invasions didn't happen. I didn't write they carried V13 are came from the Northern Balkans. However, I don't think it's impossible either. You suppose already that people outside of the Mycenaean world did not speak Greek, are we sure of that? For all we know Greek was spoken a lot more north (and east) than in classical times and was replaced there by newcomers speaking something else.

    The people within the Mycenaean world (defined as the region under the influence of the palatial complexes which developed in southern/parts of central Greece) spoke Greek and in earlier times other languages. The people outside the Mycenaean world ("Mycanean fringes") spoke a variant of the same Greek which was the result of the same processes. There are at least two prerequisites for this parallel development: 1)constant contact with the same pre-Greek language 2)constant contact between variants of Greek. Otherwise their vocabulary would develop semantically in different ways and in fact another Greek language would be formed if there was a different pre-Greek substrate. So I would say that the people who lived on the fringes of the Mycenaean world spoke Greek and also the same or a similar pre-Greek in older times as those who lived in southern Greece. If the ancestors of Dorians of classical antiquity lived anywhere to the north of that area, it would have to display 1)the same features as northern Thessaly or west Macedonia (same pre-Greek substrate etc.), but also it would have to be in contact with the Mycenaean world in order to develop the same semantic functions.



    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    The V13 being dragged along by Dorians sounds like plausible scenario, but if you make a big genetic distinction between Dorians and 'V13 kin groups', what haplogroups do you think Dorians carried?


    It's all speculation until we get actual aDNA research, but I would say R1b-Z2103. Autosomally, they definitely would have had more steppe ancestry than Mycenaeans and more contact with E-V13 groups. I see the difference between the two not so much as a "genetic distance", but as part of the inter-tribal struggle between different patrilocal groups which certainly involved E-V13 vs. E-V13 groups as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Yes, this is also the scenario I favor.
    It also explains quite well the high endurance of the Greek language in Greece. Small groups of migrants are always much more easily culturally integrated in any society and their descendants usually see the next group of migrants as foreigners and the cycle repeats itself (the same process has been happening in the USA for many centuries)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post


    So here, we have a claim by Appian that they came from Phrygia, which doesn't make sense, it makes more sense that this detail is his addition.
    Appian has merged two stories into one. The ancestors of the Taulantii (as Glasinac-Mati carriers) may have briefly encountered the Bryges around 1200-1000 BC. Appian is conflating them with the Bryges ("returning from Phrygia") who appear much later in Thrace as soldiers of the Persians. The same issue is obvious in Pseudo-Scymnus who uses the account of Herodotus as a contemporary story. Ancient authors often engaged in anachronisms because they copied older authors. This is why I said earlier that the ultimate source of many later authors is Herodotus.

    John Wilkes, The Illyrians, writes that

    the successive rule of Taulantii and Liburni in the historical tradition may represent the southward movement of lllyrian peoples during the early Iron Age from around 1000 BC into the area known as Illyris. The presence of Bryges at Epidamnus in the account of Appian seems to be confirmed by other sources, including the Coastal Voyage attributed to Scymnus of Chios and Strabo's Geography. No later record of their presence in the area survives and nor can any link be established with the Bryges of Thrace, supposedly descended from the soldiers of Xerxes' army, who appear four centuries I.Her in the army of M. Brutus during the Philippi campaign.

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