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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It's all speculation until we get actual aDNA research, but I would say R1b-Z2103. Autosomally, they definitely would have had more steppe ancestry than Mycenaeans and more contact with E-V13 groups. I see the difference between the two not so much as a "genetic distance", but as part of the inter-tribal struggle between different patrilocal groups which certainly involved E-V13 vs. E-V13 groups as well.

    I don't get it. Why exactly do you think R-Z2103 is plausible to be Dorian haplogroup but E-V13 is not?
    You even allow some E-V13 came with the Dorians. What is the way to distinguish between E-V13 groups and Dorians both of which potentially were involved in the same migration?

    Btw my impressions is that not a small number of people here support arrival of R-Z2103 to the Southern Balkans before arrival of E-V13. Due to different reasons. One reason would be to explain Indoeuropean component among Mycenaens.
    I also think R-Z2103 reached Southern Balkans long time before Dorians did. One of my reasons for such opinion is what I would call "deeper" presence of R-Z2103 in Mediterranean compared to E-V13. For example you can take a look at Sardinia and Turkey.

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  3. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post


    Appian has merged two stories into one.


    Appian is conflating them with the Bryges ("returning from Phrygia") who appear much later in Thrace as soldiers of the Persians.
    No he is not.

    Firstly, the Bryges who appear in Thrace KILL the army of the Persians, and wound their leader Mardonius, they don't appear as soldiers of the Persians, but rather are called the "Brygian Thracians" by Herodotus. They are then enslaved by the Persians, but they are very much locals.

    So this is a total misreading and inaccurate representation of the truth:

    "Thus fared the fleet; and meanwhile Mardonios and the land-army while encamping in Macedonia were attacked in the night by the Brygian Thracians, and many of them were slain by the Brygians and Mardonios himself was wounded.

    However not even these escaped being enslaved by the Persians, for Mardonios did not depart from that region until he had made them subject. But when he had subdued these, he proceeded to lead his army back, since he had suffered great loss with his land-army in fighting against the Brygians and with his fleet in going round Athos. So this expedition departed back to Asia having gained no honour by its contests.


    6.45
    Herodotus
    Histories



    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post


    The same issue is obvious in Pseudo-Scymnus who uses the account of Herodotus as a contemporary story.
    Pseudo-Scymnus account in which he says that the Brygi lived next to the Enchelae can have nothing to do with Herodotus, since nowhere does Herodotus ever mention such a detail.

    His account must be considered at the least original and referring to the same time as that of the Enchelae.

    And with respect to anachronism, Scymnus' account of the Brygi living next to the Enchelae (who lived in Ohrid), and then later in time Strabo mentioning specifically them in Pelagonia (with their city being Kydrae), would actually seem to suggest a chronology of them being pushed further and further away from the coast of Durres. (first in Durrës like Appian said and then progressively pushed eastward into Pelagonia).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post

    This is why I said earlier that the ultimate source of many later authors is Herodotus.
    Herodotus never mentioned Brygians in Albania, so their multiple appearance in different sites in or near Albania by different authors cannot be blamed on him so that it may be just thrown away and ignored.

    Where I think Appian can have been influenced by Herodotus is in his assumption that the Bryges must have come into Albania from Phrygia.

    The relation between Bryges and Phryges must have roughly been known about, but he would not have known that they more probably had come from the hinterland.

    Pseudo-Apollodorus in his Bibliotheca (record of Greek myths and legends) recorded a war between Brygians against Thesprotians in Epirus, this is roughly the çameria region.

    John Wilkes totally wrongly supposes that Brygians came from Persians, probably misreading the original quote.

    He made many such mistakes, for example, in his book The Illyrians, he writes that the chelidonoi meant "snail-men." Yet in Greek chelidon means swallow (bird).

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  5. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The ancestors of the Taulantii (as Glasinac-Mati carriers) may have briefly encountered the Bryges around 1200-1000 BC.
    When the Brygi posessed Durrës and the surrounding country is of great importance to figure out.

    And whether they were pushed further into the hinterland and survived until the Roman occupation as Scymnus, Strabo, etc claimed is also of great importance.

    This timeline of 1200BC-1000BC would match the legend of the Brygian-Thesprotian war since it was led by Odysseus supposedly, a figure from the time of the Trojan war.

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    Here is an ancient inscription found in Durrës, it writes:

    "Brygos, son of Aphrodisios"

    https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182255

  7. #1015
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    Homer, in the Iliad, mentions Mysians both in Thrace and Anatolia, so this connection between Balkans and Anatolia tribal doublets is not an invention of Herodotus, who wrote later than homer:


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    Back to the original question, I believe that much of the E-V13 in Greece is also of Thracian origin, not only of Illyrian or Dorian origin. Let's not forget that the modern Greek country and nation isn't comprised of proto-Greek people only such as Dorians. Modern Greek nation is a product of all people living and mixing in the late Roman Empire of the Balkans and it's territory was lot more bigger than current borders of modern Greece. The language here it's not that important because the Greek became lingua franca in the Empire much like English is a lingua franca in USA but not all Americans are of English origin. Bruzmi explained well how we shouldn't look two-dimensional in regards of the haplogroups and much of the spread of a certain haplogroup could have happened with simple migration of workers, traders, slaves etc.

    Also I don't think we can say lot about Greek E-V13 as the Greeks don't test SNPs much nor there are who knows how many NGS tests. However I can tell you that the Greek positive for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909a/ is distantly related to a Bulgarian with origins from Central Macedonia who is SNP pack tested only and it's positive for E-BY5022 however many important SNPs aren't tested with the SNP pack so he is looking forward to do Big Y test in the next months and we will be able to tell how close he is to the Greek. I believe this is a late antiquity or early Medieval connection but we will see. As this clade is lot more diverse in the Central and Eastern Balkans than it is in the Western, I believe it's of ultimate Thracian origin.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  10. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Back to the original question, I believe that much of the E-V13 in Greece is also of Thracian origin, not only of Illyrian or Dorian origin.

    However I can tell you that the Greek positive for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909a/ is distantly related to a Bulgarian with origins from Central Macedonia
    On yfull there you have an Armenian also on that clade. So if there is any truth to Phrygians relation to Armenians, then that clade might be Brygian not Thracian.

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  12. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    On yfull there you have an Armenian also on that clade. So if there is any truth to Phrygians relation to Armenians, then that clade might be Brygian not Thracian.
    Yes there is an Armenian from Azerbaijan but the actual TMRCA between the Armenian and the Greek is 2300 ybp as per Yfull before they removed the TMRCA for E haplogroup because of glitch.
    Even if we take in account that many believe that Yfull underestimates TMRCAs by bit, still the time frame is quite late for actual Phrigian/Brigian connection.

    It can be anything actually, we don't know what groups or people TMRCA was part of. It could of been even an ancient Macedonian connection. But because the very ancient Macedonians were probably just amalgamation of different groups living in Macedonian such as Greeks, Thracians etc. I believe that the ultimate origin of the clade is Thracian. There is already an E-BY5022 Bulgarian from Yambol in south-east Bulgaria totally unrelated to the one discussed above. So we talk about diversity in Central and Eastern Balkans.

    There is already a pattern where some important clades such as E-BY5022 or E-Y16729 are showing up as in important Central-East Balkan spread and diversification, a pattern not seen in the Western Balkans. Also parallel of E-BY5022 there seems to be another clade in Bulgaria found which further backs up it's Thracian-Getae connection. Also let's not forget for the most ancient E-BY3880+ up to date from Moldova positive for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC44169/
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-02-2021 at 11:23 AM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  14. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Back to the original question, I believe that much of the E-V13 in Greece is also of Thracian origin, not only of Illyrian or Dorian origin. Let's not forget that the modern Greek country and nation isn't comprised of proto-Greek people only such as Dorians. Modern Greek nation is a product of all people living and mixing in the late Roman Empire of the Balkans and it's territory was lot more bigger than current borders of modern Greece. The language here it's not that important because the Greek became lingua franca in the Empire much like English is a lingua franca in USA but not all Americans are of English origin. Bruzmi explained well how we shouldn't look two-dimensional in regards of the haplogroups and much of the spread of a certain haplogroup could have happened with simple migration of workers, traders, slaves etc.

    Also I don't think we can say lot about Greek E-V13 as the Greeks don't test SNPs much nor there are who knows how many NGS tests. However I can tell you that the Greek positive for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909a/ is distantly related to a Bulgarian with origins from Central Macedonia who is SNP pack tested only and it's positive for E-BY5022 however many important SNPs aren't tested with the SNP pack so he is looking forward to do Big Y test in the next months and we will be able to tell how close he is to the Greek. I believe this is a late antiquity or early Medieval connection but we will see. As this clade is lot more diverse in the Central and Eastern Balkans than it is in the Western, I believe it's of ultimate Thracian origin.
    What do you mean that its territory was a lot bigger than current borders? are you refering to their azia minor and sicily possetions or bigger in the balkans?

  15. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    What do you mean that its territory was a lot bigger than current borders? are you refering to their azia minor and sicily possetions or bigger in the balkans?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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