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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I don't get it. Why exactly do you think R-Z2103 is plausible to be Dorian haplogroup but E-V13 is not?
    You even allow some E-V13 came with the Dorians. What is the way to distinguish between E-V13 groups and Dorians both of which potentially were involved in the same migration?.
    Language.

    A key difference between Proto-Greek and its descendants is that they have a pre-Greek substrate which accounts for a substantial portion of their vocabulary, sound changes etc. Even if aDNA recovery wasn't possible, we would still know that Proto-Greeks came into heavy contact with another people.

    What eventually became Doric is one the most conservative group of variants of ancient Greek. If the Dorians had a high E-V13 component via any process a) their Greek wouldn't be conservative phonologically, but would have diverged in a different direction than southern Greek variants b) there would be a non-Greek substrate in Doric vocabulary, which would be different from the pre-Greek substrate of southern Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    You even allow some E-V13 came with the Dorians. What is the way to distinguish between E-V13 groups and Dorians both of which potentially were involved in the same migration?.
    There is no way to distinguish them. If E-V13 joined the Dorians, it reached the Peloponnese as part of a Dorian tribe. Whether it later became a larger percentage via some founder effect or not, is a whole other discussion. All of this is speculation and I'm only saying it because I think that it's the only distantly plausible scenario for the Dorians to have carried E-V13 to the south

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Herodotus never mentioned Brygians in Albania, so their multiple appearance in different sites in or near Albania by different authors cannot be blamed on him so that it may be just thrown away and ignored.
    It's not being ignored. Herodotus mentions them as neighbours to the Macedonians. It is most probably true that Bryges migrated to Anatolia in the LBA/transitional era and became the Phrygians. But they didn't live in the Balkans in 100 BC except for maybe a small community in Thrace which had migrated from Anatolia.

    Everything else is an anachronism in Strabo, Appian etc. When you read the context of every author, it becomes obvious. For example, Strabo writes that
    "In earlier times there were also cities among these tribes; at any rate, Pelagonia used to be called Tripolitis, one of which was Azorus; and all the cities of the Deuriopes on the Erigon River were populous, among which were Bryanium, Alalcomenae, and Stubara. And Cydrae belonged to the Brygi, while Aeginium, on the border of Aethicia and Tricca,455 belonged to the Tymphaei." In historical times, Cydrae was just a Lyncestian settlement.

    Dyrrhachium was the "tavern of the Adriatic" at that time. A person named Brygos doesn't say much about his origins. He could have easily been from Anatolia. See Brygos Sokratou in Pergamon.

    I wouldn't give too much weight on the Phrygians/Bryges as carriers of E-V13 because if they were E-V13 they would have to carry it in Anatolia, where the Phrygians were one the largest populations of the region. So there should be a heavy presence of E-V13 among Anatolian Greeks, Turks and also Armenians whom Herodotus calls "settlers from Phrygia, were armed like the Phrygians. Both these together had as their commander Artochmes, who had married a daughter of Darius". But that's not the case, is it?

    The search for E-V13 should probably focus on historical people like the Enchelei.

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  3. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    FYI, YF68040, BY169463+ sample, is Albanian from Gjirokaster. Shady dude from rrenjet hides his identity.
    Well yeah, I was aware there was a E-FGC44169+ Albanian by looking at Rrenjet public database. However it's telling by the number of testees among Albanians and Bulgarians that statistically wise this subclade has more frequency and diversity in the Bulgarians even with less testees than Albanians.

    There are some interesting connections among South Albanians and Bulgarians however. It certainly has something to do with a flow of people and genes in both directions during the two Bulgarian Empires in the Medieval although there are for sure subclades downstream of E-BY5022 and such among the Albanians that might even have an older, ancient presence among them.
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-02-2021 at 02:19 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  4. #1023
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    I don't know what's the catch with these Saudis and other Arabs who appear to have plenty of E-BY5022 and E-Y16729 tho. What kind of migration reached that far away to the Arab lands?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  5. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It's not being ignored. Herodotus mentions them as neighbours to the Macedonians. It is most probably true that Bryges migrated to Anatolia in the LBA/transitional era and became the Phrygians. But they didn't live in the Balkans in 100 BC except for maybe a small community in Thrace which had migrated from Anatolia.

    Everything else is an anachronism in Strabo, Appian etc.


    When you read the context of every author, it becomes obvious. For example, Strabo writes that

    "In earlier times there were also cities among these tribes; at any rate, Pelagonia used to be called Tripolitis, one of which was Azorus; and all the cities of the Deuriopes on the Erigon River were populous, among which were Bryanium, Alalcomenae, and Stubara. And Cydrae belonged to the Brygi, while Aeginium, on the border of Aethicia and Tricca,455 belonged to the Tymphaei." In historical times, Cydrae was just a Lyncestian settlement.
    Even the quote you singled out said that in earlier times, there were also cities among these tribes. And it is not the full quote.

    Strabo is clearly describing them as living there during his time, this is made evident by the very fact that he makes the reference to "earlier times'' when they had cities.

    This makes explicit that he is not just anachronistically saying they lived here / there once, but rather that they live here now, in the past they had cities also.

    Here is the full quote by strabo:

    § 7.7.9

    For above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi. Somewhere nearby are also the silver mines of Damastion, where the Perisadyes and the Encheleii (also called Sesarethii) together established their dominion; and near these people are also the Lyncestae, the territory Deuriopus, the Pelagonian Tripolitis, the Eordi, Elimeia, and Eratyra.

    In earlier times these peoples were ruled separately, each by its own dynasty. For instance, it was the descendants of Cadmus and Harmonia who ruled over the Encheleii; and the scenes of the stories told about them are still pointed out there. These people, I say, were not ruled by men of native stock; and the Lyncestae became subject to Arrabaeus, who was of the stock of the Bacchiads (Eurydice, the mother of Philip, Amyntas' son, was Arrabaeus' daughter's daughter and Sirra was his daughter); and again, of the Epeirotes, the Molossi became subject to Pyrrhus, the son of Neoptolemus the son of Achilles, and to his descendants, who were Thessalians. But the rest were ruled by men of native stock. Then, because one tribe or another was always getting the mastery over others, they all ended in the Macedonian empire, except a few who dwelt above the Ionian Sea. And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia.

    But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar, although, they add, some speak both languages. But when the empire of the Macedonians was broken up, they fell under the power of the Romans. And it is through the country of these tribes that the Egnatian Road runs, which begins at Epidamnus and Apollonia. Near the Road to Candavia are not only the lakes which are in the neighborhood of Lychnidus, on the shores of which are salt-fish establishments that are independent of other waters, but also a number of rivers, some emptying into the Ionian Sea and others flowing in a southerly direction — I mean the Inachus, the Aratthus, the Achelous and the Evenus (formerly called the Lycormas); the Aratthus emptying into the Ambracian Gulf, the Inachus into the Achelous, the Achelous itself and the Evenus into the sea — the Achelous after traversing Acarnania and the Evenus after traversing Aitolia.

    But the Erigon, after receiving many streams from the Illyrian mountains and from the countries of the Lyncestae, Brygi, Deuriopes, and Pelagonians, empties into the Axius.


    In earlier times there were also cities among these tribes; at any rate, Pelagonia used to be called Tripolitis, one of which was Azorus; and all the cities of the Deuriopes on the Erigon River were populous, among which were Bryanium, Alalcomenae, and Stybara. And Cydrae belonged to the Brygians,
    "


    And there is no argument that Scymnus or Appian just made it up based on Herodotus saying that Brygians lived next to Macedonia.

    Also I saw no evidence for the claim of "they didn't live in the Balkans in 100 BC except for maybe a small community in Thrace which had migrated from Anatolia. "

    First you claimed they were brought by the persians based on John Wilkes supposition/misreading of Herodotus, I don't know on what you base this specifically.

  6. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't know what's the catch with these Saudis and other Arabs who appear to have plenty of E-BY5022 and E-Y16729 tho. What kind of migration reached that far away to the Arab lands?
    Saudis appear in all kinds of Y haplogroups. I think they've just taken a lot of paternal haplogroup tests compared to the rest of the world.

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  8. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It is most probably true that Bryges migrated to Anatolia in the LBA/transitional era and became the Phrygians. But they didn't live in the Balkans .
    What about the Balkan Dardani vs Anatolian Dardanians? Do you agree it is most probably the case that they are also related?

  9. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Saudis appear in all kinds of Y haplogroups. I think they've just taken a lot of paternal haplogroup tests compared to the rest of the world.
    Well yeah, it makes sense, they are some of the most tested people in the world.
    But if you look at subclades of E-V13 they seem to have lot more of E-BY5022 and E-Y16729 than anything else. What's funny is that they seem to cluster again closely to Bulgarians even in other unrelated clades such as this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/
    The Bulgarian is not on Yfull however he is Big Y tested and is even closer to the Spaniard on the Block Tree than to the Saudi.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  11. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't know what's the catch with these Saudis and other Arabs who appear to have plenty of E-BY5022 and E-Y16729 tho. What kind of migration reached that far away to the Arab lands?
    Vast majority got there from Roman era to Ottoman Empire. Including the V13 clusters found among Kurds, Armenians, Azerbaijan etc.

    There are even younger Balkan clusters among Saudis, like R-Y126039 and R-FGC40206 for example.
    Last edited by broder; 03-02-2021 at 04:03 PM.

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    Damn, Saudis doing work, wonder how many Y clades have been discovered by their testing

  14. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Vast majority got there from Roman era to Ottoman Empire. Including the V13 clusters found among Kurds, Armenians, Azerbaijan etc.

    There are even younger Balkan cluster among Saudis, like R-Y126039 and R-FGC40206 for example.
    I thought so as well...

    But one thing it bothers me is, why E-CTS9320 doesn't seem to show up at all or at least shows up as a minority lineage among the other E-V13 lineages in the Arabs when it's actually the most frequent and diverse E-V13 lineage among the Balkan people today?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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