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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Those old clades of Y3183 are quite fascinating. At FTDNA we have another Bulgarian who is in a small subclade with a German, and there is also a Morrocan sample who is negative for all Y3183 subclades. Compared to CTS9320 and L241 it also seem to have far less Central/Eastern European members, but no idea what it means.
    Even if it would be correct that the original centre and base of E-V13 was in the North Carpathians, they could have "send" individuals and small clans in all directions at an earlier time as well. So one doesn't exclude the other. Not saying this is the case for this concrete example, but just stressing it more generally speaking. So even single ancient individuals which could pop up by chance are not key as long as they can't be connected to the main spreading event. The main spreading event and its source population and culture is what interests me the most and this leads to the North Carpathians the strongest. Another issue is that even old subclades can move with newer ones. The age is more important for younger dates, because then it tells us there must have been a common ancestor in this time frame. Like in this case, the clade is old, but the subclade is probably a new Balkan one, fitting exactly into that pattern.
    There are various Central European E-Y3183, but most have a TMRCA to others from the Balkan in the Bronze Age. Same for the small subclade of the Bulgarian and the German, they share one mutation, but the average SNP distance is the same as for the basal ones. So the split is of the same age - so even older than for many other clades and subclades of E-V13 between NCE and SEE.

    Even the later subclades are still very old, but sometimes post-Iron Age. Yet those post-Iron Age show a clear geographical pattern, like E-BY44794. And its the same in practically all branches. It looks like one big dispersion event in the LBA-EIA and after that a rather moderate survival rate, without too much of rapid expansions with some regional exceptions, especially in the Balkans.
    Last edited by Riverman; 03-04-2021 at 12:42 PM.

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  3. #1082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Thought I would share a Big Y-700 result of an Albanian from Kosovë that recently came out at Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika.com. He tested E-Y3183 (S2972-) and will form a subclade defined by BY5330 + etc with YF01502, Bulgarian from Plovdiv. Their TMRCA should be 1000-1500 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y3183/)

    Worth mentioning that we previously confirmed another Albanian sample, from Tirana region, that tested E-Y3183 (S2972-) at YSEQ (http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/...05/E-Z5018.png) and the STR distance is high as compared to the Albanian from Kosovë. The high genetic distance suggests that the sample from Tiranë would either split upstream or form another E-Y3183 (S2972-) subclade.
    Interesting, this is a branch with a modal haplotype. Nevertheless among Bulgarians there are three separate E-Y3183*, S2972- clades: E-BY5350, E-BY174450 and as of yet an unprofiled cluster with an SNP pack. Interestingly like E-BY174450 who cluster with a German, they also have a cousin in Austria.

    @Rafc E-BY174450 is not such a small cluster. In addition to Bulgarian with BigY, there is another FTDNA Bulgarian belonging to it and they are not close (8/37). There is also a Romanian (9/37 and 6/37 with these). Due to distinct STR profile, there are multiple additional Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, Romanian, and a N.Macedonian from scientific papers.

    The third unprofiled E-Y3183* cluster has even more members: North Macedonians, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, Ruthenian, three Macedonian Greeks and three Greeks from Korinthia who are of non-Arvanite origin (they were tested in a study about Greek colonization where the people of Arvanite origin were excluded).

    Chances are your second E-Y3183* Albanian from Tirana belongs to one of these clusters. Considering the general diversity of this branch, it is quite unlikely these are Antiquity locals in the Western Balkans. E-Y3183 has also various downstream branches in Bulgaria, and a cluster of Basarabi from Romania belongs to one of these isolated clades. Only the Kuchi branch seems to have an older presence in the Western Balkans, most likely arrivals in LBA/EIA.

    Rather similarly to Shala R-PF7563>Y83965 they might even fit into some Bessi of Gottfried Schram.

    There are E-V13 Albanians who do not appear to be of Illyrian origin at all. For example the E-PH1173 Albanians (dys439=9), and also E-FGC71980 Albanian clusters between the Greeks, and their c. 2000 year distant relative in Bulgaria..

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  5. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    There are E-V13 Albanians who do not appear to be of Illyrian origin at all. For example the E-PH1173 Albanians (dys439=9), and also E-FGC71980 Albanian clusters between the Greeks, and their c. 2000 year distant relative in Bulgaria..
    What about Greek and Roman colonists in Albania by the way? We know a slight influence from the North West and the strong Albanian influence in parts of Greece. But what about the other direction in Antiquity?

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  7. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Interesting, this is a branch with a modal haplotype. Nevertheless among Bulgarians there are three separate E-Y3183*, S2972- clades: E-BY5350, E-BY174450 and as of yet an unprofiled cluster with an SNP pack. Interestingly like E-BY174450 who cluster with a German, they also have a cousin in Austria.

    @Rafc E-BY174450 is not such a small cluster. In addition to Bulgarian with BigY, there is another FTDNA Bulgarian belonging to it and they are not close (8/37). There is also a Romanian (9/37 and 6/37 with these). Due to distinct STR profile, there are multiple additional Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, Romanian, and a N.Macedonian from scientific papers.

    The third unprofiled E-Y3183* cluster has even more members: North Macedonians, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, Ruthenian, three Macedonian Greeks and three Greeks from Korinthia who are of non-Arvanite origin (they were tested in a study about Greek colonization where the people of Arvanite origin were excluded).

    Chances are your second E-Y3183* Albanian from Tirana belongs to one of these clusters. Considering the general diversity of this branch, it is quite unlikely these are Antiquity locals in the Western Balkans. E-Y3183 has also various downstream branches in Bulgaria, and a cluster of Basarabi from Romania belongs to one of these isolated clades. Only the Kuchi branch seems to have an older presence in the Western Balkans, most likely arrivals in LBA/EIA.

    Rather similarly to Shala R-PF7563>Y83965 they might even fit into some Bessi of Gottfried Schram.

    There are E-V13 Albanians who do not appear to be of Illyrian origin at all. For example the E-PH1173 Albanians (dys439=9), and also E-FGC71980 Albanian clusters between the Greeks, and their c. 2000 year distant relative in Bulgaria..
    Do you have a link to the Greek study you could provide? Thank you.

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  9. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What about Greek and Roman colonists in Albania by the way? We know a slight influence from the North West and the strong Albanian influence in parts of Greece. But what about the other direction in Antiquity?
    The influence was so large that various Southern Illyrian tribes were bilingual. And even this Southern Albanian Illyrian culture is hypothesized to have had Greek input.

    There is also a Serb with a tradition of descend from Montenegro. He has an unusual haplotype and fully matches one Macedonain Greek. He is E-A7135*, A8555-. So if that Macedonian is E-A7136, there are five separate Y3183 clades in Greeks, although you only see those from Laconia at YFull due to their poor level of testing.

    E-Y3183 overall has no less than nine separate branches in the Southeastern Europe whose distance to one another is at least the Early Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    Do you have a link to the Greek study you could provide? Thank you.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124

    104 Greeks from Corinthia, 93 from Euboea. Arvanite ancestry people excluded (therefore I believe there was no R-Z2705 and they usually appear in Greek samples).

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...72497309000052

    191 Greek from Macedonia (various regions)

    And in these there are at least 8-9 E-Y3183 Greeks. Especially regarding this third E-Y3183* branch one has to assume that this clade might be Greek as it occurs in both Macedonian Greeks and in those from Corinthia, and it's more common in Greeks than in other peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124

    104 Greeks from Corinthia, 93 from Euboea. Arvanite ancestry people excluded (therefore I believe there was no R-Z2705 and they usually appear in Greek samples).

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...72497309000052

    191 Greek from Macedonia (various regions)

    And in these there are at least 8-9 E-Y3183 Greeks. Especially regarding this third E-Y3183* branch one has to assume that this clade might be Greek as it occurs in both Macedonian Greeks and in those from Corinthia, and it's more common in Greeks than in other peoples.
    I would be careful with classifications based on 17 markers. Are you sure they cannot be anything else?

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  14. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I would be careful with classifications based on 17 markers. Are you sure they cannot be anything else?
    I am very careful with such classifications. They cannot possibly be anything else, because:
    1) they are defined by a range of very unusual and stable STR's,
    2) due to their GD to the SNP profiled people (often almost identical haplotypes).

    Some clades are just lucky in that they have crucial mutations happening in those 17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I am very careful with such classifications. They cannot possibly be anything else, because:
    1) they are defined by a range of very unusual and stable STR's,
    2) due to their GD to the SNP profiled people (often almost identical haplotypes).

    Some clades are just lucky in that they have crucial mutations happening in those 17.
    Indeed, sometimes we are lucky with very distinctive markers. What are the mutations for that third Y3183 group then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Indeed, sometimes we are lucky with very distinctive markers. What are the mutations for that third Y3183 group then?
    FTDNA kit 122515, I believe Bulgarian with origins from Macedonia. His distant relative is Austrian 348774.

    Balkans cluster shares:
    dys385a=17
    GATAH4=10
    dys438=11


    Also dys456=15 is slightly more common than 16, not sure if that also defines something in the cluster, it seems the entire E-Z16659 is defined by a backmutation there.

    You can see Bulgarian and Austrian also share dys447. Austrian doesn't share low H4. One Greek from Macedonia also has the old H4=11. That might be an indication he is the oldest Balkan haplotype, or his private mutation.

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