Page 11 of 137 FirstFirst ... 9101112132161111 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 1366

Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #101
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,006
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    An ethnic and linguistic group, some people try to argue away Dorians but the fact remains that Greeks used the term with an actual meaning and that individual polis had people in them of clear Doric origin with Doric identity and the difference between Doric and non-Doric identities had an important role in some of said cities.
    After the collapse of the Mycenean culture We have 3 New Greek speaking people. Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians. If Dorians come from northwest what about the others? All of them are Greek speaking related(thought less IE related and more native influenced). If Dorians come from somwhere in Central EU they should have bring with them a dialect related wirh Illyrians,Celts, Thracians or Whatever? I mean, they come in Greece... Dominated and being responsible for the collapse of the Mycenean culture... and after all, they adopted the dialect of the local people? Usually people who conquer bring With them a New language. The Doric Greek is indeed a more Barbarian dialect Witch is making It less Greek at least in phonology(Tsakonian is an a good example) but Overall Doric and the related northwest Greek dialects are Greek based and for Some reason less IE compared to what Achaeans used to speak Witch It was by far a very IE based language.IMO there were Greek tribes inhabit somwhere in modern South Albania/Epirus or somewhere in Northwest Macedonia and prolly they influenced by other Barbarian people of that period. Some of them might indeed mixed and adopted new customs, policies, warfare culture etc.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 11-18-2020 at 06:43 AM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Johnny ola For This Useful Post:

     dosas (11-18-2020),  Principe (11-18-2020)

  3. #102
    Banned
    Posts
    845
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V13

    Albania
    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    The point is there seems to be zero difference in the main components. This two way model also has much better distances than the other one. Empuries samples would have higher steppe if the admixture was changed since Bronze Age. GRC_Mycenaean average has larger distances only because it's an average of noisy samples. In fact it scores Yoruba and other odd percentages easily.

    For this thread, if Dorian ethnos are bearers of E-V13 and Steppe into Greece then why is it that the places that spoke Doric dialect do not have higher incidence of Steppe and E-V13 than other areas in Greece? Do Tsakonians and Maniots have a large degree of E-V13 haplogroups? There is another thread here about the Peloponnese Y-DNA and the Maniots seem to be mainly being in the J2 haplogroups. Other areas associated with the Doric dialect in the Classical Age are Crete, the Dodecanese, and the Carian region of Asia Minor. These areas have among the lowest E-V13 out of all Greek areas. So if Dorians were these people with higher steppe admixture and E-V13 do you think the Dorians only had a cultural impact and not a genetic one to these areas that spoke the pure Doric dialect? Or do you think they had a genetic impact but it did not last and because of bad luck there is zero evidence of this genetic impact?
    Are you joking? Dodecanese Greeks main Y-DNA is E-V13 (one Greek member here from Dodecanese is E-V13), it reaches around 32.5%, rafc posted somewhere after gathering data from national geographic or some other projects.

  4. #103
    Registered Users
    Posts
    768
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y155609
    mtDNA (M)
    W6c1a

    Byzantine Empire
    I ran the optimafit function of Genoplot (Oracles) of both Empuries2 (avg) and GRC_Myc (avg) for your reading pleasure (scaled, pen=0):

    Empuries2:
     

    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682086232.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682098383.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682110908.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682123557.png

    optimafit nmonte run:
    sample: Iberia Northeast Empuries2:Average
    distance: 2.5484
    Sardinian: 44
    Greek_Trabzon: 24.4
    Italian_Apulia: 17
    Cypriot: 14.6
    Attached Images Attached Images
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dosas For This Useful Post:

     Greekscholar (11-18-2020),  Johnny ola (11-18-2020)

  6. #104
    Registered Users
    Posts
    768
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y155609
    mtDNA (M)
    W6c1a

    Byzantine Empire
    GRC_MYC

     

    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682524649.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682530537.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682537321.png
    screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1605682543052.png

    optimafit nmonte run:

    sample: GRC Mycenaean:Average
    distance: 2.2909
    Sardinian: 45.4
    Cypriot: 24
    Greek_Trabzon: 16.2
    Greek_Kos: 14.4
    Attached Images Attached Images
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dosas For This Useful Post:

     Greekscholar (11-18-2020),  Johnny ola (11-18-2020)

  8. #105
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,006
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Are you joking? Dodecanese Greeks main Y-DNA is E-V13 (one Greek member here from Dodecanese is E-V13), it reaches around 32.5%, rafc posted somewhere after gathering data from national geographic or some other projects.
    Greek islanders inclunding Cretans and Cypriots are highly J2a. I have no idea where have you seen that these people are Ev13(without saying that such lineages do not exist there). Even South Peloponnesus is J2a First and then anything else.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Johnny ola For This Useful Post:

     Principe (11-18-2020)

  10. #106
    Banned
    Posts
    845
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V13

    Albania
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Greek islanders inclunding Cretans and Cypriots are highly J2a. I have no idea where have you seen that these people are Ev13(without saying that such lineages do not exist there). Even South Peloponnesus is J2a First and then anything else.
    I am talking only about Dodecanese not about other Greek Islands which are indeed mainly J2a. But Dodecanese do seem to have E-V13.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Hawk For This Useful Post:

     Principe (11-18-2020)

  12. #107
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,006
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am talking only about Dodecanese not about other Greek Islands which are indeed mainly J2a. But Dodecanese do seem to have E-V13.
    Most Dodecanese people We have seen So far(inclunding Some members here) are J2a. Crete and Kos do not have a Huge diffrence in their autosomal and ydna seems Also related. Islands and southern Greece in general, have more West Asian associated lineages/clades Witch is normal since they are by far more West Asian admixed.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Johnny ola For This Useful Post:

     Principe (11-18-2020)

  14. #108
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,714
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    The point is there seems to be zero difference in the main components. This two way model also has much better distances than the other one. Empuries samples would have higher steppe if the admixture was changed since Bronze Age. GRC_Mycenaean average has larger distances only because it's an average of noisy samples. In fact it scores Yoruba and other odd percentages easily.

    For this thread, if Dorian ethnos are bearers of E-V13 and Steppe into Greece then why is it that the places that spoke Doric dialect do not have higher incidence of Steppe and E-V13 than other areas in Greece? Do Tsakonians and Maniots have a large degree of E-V13 haplogroups? There is another thread here about the Peloponnese Y-DNA and the Maniots seem to be mainly being in the J2 haplogroups. Other areas associated with the Doric dialect in the Classical Age are Crete, the Dodecanese, and the Carian region of Asia Minor. These areas have among the lowest E-V13 out of all Greek areas. So if Dorians were these people with higher steppe admixture and E-V13 do you think the Dorians only had a cultural impact and not a genetic one to these areas that spoke the pure Doric dialect? Or do you think they had a genetic impact but it did not last and because of bad luck there is zero evidence of this genetic impact?
    Actually there are minimum two influences, one Illyrian (with Thracian?) directly on Dorians, this could even mean an increase of J2, since so far especially the coastal Illyrian core seems to have it (?), secondly a Northern broadscale infiltration even up to historical times, directly with Thracians, which should be more directly E-V13. Another way to see the latter would be like a general North -> South infiltration which was later pushed South itself or overlaid by even more recent, especially Slavic expansion. How the more Western, in the broadest sense Illyrian related, and the more Eastern, in the broadest sense more Thracian related, influences play in together and influence each other will be very interesting to investigate, as is whether E-V13 was probably even present in Greece earlier, which is possible of course.
    Other than that, the results so far are very meagre and who knows what kind of individuals these were? Especially in the colonies, you have interesting people floating around, like adventurers, the son of a citizen with a slave, other traders or local people, what not. I'm not say that's the case, but that number of samples in a highly complex society like the Greek is not really to be considered representative. Its actually quite poor considering how important the Greeks were. You need many samples from the various Greek tribes and city states at best, like always, a net of samples taken, then we can rush to conclusions, especially with the right outside references. Now, its just too early and we can just say that a large scale more Northern shifted impact seems less likely.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Principe (11-18-2020)

  16. #109
    Banned
    Posts
    845
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V13

    Albania
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Actually there are minimum two influences, one Illyrian (with Thracian?) directly on Dorians, this could even mean an increase of J2, since so far especially the coastal Illyrian core seems to have it (?), secondly a Northern broadscale infiltration even up to historical times, directly with Thracians, which should be more directly E-V13. Another way to see the latter would be like a general North -> South infiltration which was later pushed South itself or overlaid by even more recent, especially Slavic expansion. How the more Western, in the broadest sense Illyrian related, and the more Eastern, in the broadest sense more Thracian related, influences play in together and influence each other will be very interesting to investigate, as is whether E-V13 was probably even present in Greece earlier, which is possible of course.
    Other than that, the results so far are very meagre and who knows what kind of individuals these were? Especially in the colonies, you have interesting people floating around, like adventurers, the son of a citizen with a slave, other traders or local people, what not. I'm not say that's the case, but that number of samples in a highly complex society like the Greek is not really to be considered representative. Its actually quite poor considering how important the Greeks were. You need many samples from the various Greek tribes and city states at best, like always, a net of samples taken, then we can rush to conclusions, especially with the right outside references. Now, its just too early and we can just say that a large scale more Northern shifted impact seems less likely.
    Tosk/South Albanians don't have significant level of J2b2, it doesn't exceed ~8%. Probably J2b2 was confined to Illyrians from Northern Montenegro and Dalmatian regions more.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hawk For This Useful Post:

     Principe (11-18-2020),  Riverman (11-18-2020)

  18. #110
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,714
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Tosk/South Albanians don't have significant level of J2b2, it doesn't exceed ~8%. Probably J2b2 was confined to Illyrians from Northern Montenegro and Dalmatian regions more.
    I think so too, since they were those more influenced by older layers of Balkanics and earlier Tumulus waves, whereas the more Northern Illyrian-related groups and Thracians were more influenced by Urnfield and Fluted Ware horizons (wider sense). Its not just possible, but even likely, that among the different tribes and clans different haplogroups predominated at that point in time.

Page 11 of 137 FirstFirst ... 9101112132161111 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. G-L497 et les invasions indo-européennes
    By palamede in forum French
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-22-2019, 10:33 AM
  2. Monkeys and Chimpanzees have entered the Stone Age
    By shazou in forum Natural Sciences
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-12-2019, 07:48 AM
  3. sorry to have entered in this forum
    By euasta in forum Forum Support
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-23-2019, 06:27 PM
  4. Mycenaean and Crete Armenoi (Dorian) on GEDMatch!
    By Sikeliot in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-05-2017, 07:47 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-19-2015, 01:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •