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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1091
    I do not know whether it was already mentioned here but the first thing which came to my mind having seen the Y3183 sample from Marocco was a Roman inscription from the 3th century AD: "CIL 8.9381 = ILS 2763 records 1,000 Bessian recruits sent to Mauretania Tingitana"

    "D(is) M(anibus) s(acrum) Sex(tus) Iul(ius) Iulianus / ex Germania superiore{m} / tribunus n(umeri) Syrorum M(a)l/vensium hic sepultus est / <c=D>um deducit iuniores Bessos / |(mille) in Tingitana(m) provinciam / qui vixit annis XXXXV cui / mon<u=I>mentum fecit / Iul(ius) Ingenuus frater / et heres curante / Sacimatho / liberto eiusdem / defuncti"

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  3. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    I do not know whether it was already mentioned here but the first thing which came to my mind having seen the Y3183 sample from Marocco was a Roman inscription from the 3th century AD: "CIL 8.9381 = ILS 2763 records 1,000 Bessian recruits sent to Mauretania Tingitana"

    "D(is) M(anibus) s(acrum) Sex(tus) Iul(ius) Iulianus / ex Germania superiore{m} / tribunus n(umeri) Syrorum M(a)l/vensium hic sepultus est / <c=D>um deducit iuniores Bessos / |(mille) in Tingitana(m) provinciam / qui vixit annis XXXXV cui / mon<u=I>mentum fecit / Iul(ius) Ingenuus frater / et heres curante / Sacimatho / liberto eiusdem / defuncti"

    Here are other Bessi that were recorded as stationed in Germany, Sardina, Italy, Spain, Greece, Pannonia:

    https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...uche?qs=bessus

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  5. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Here are other Bessi that were recorded as stationed in Germany, Sardina, Italy, Spain, Greece, Pannonia:

    https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...uche?qs=bessus
    There are some other correlations under Y3183. For example, BY5423 shows a migrational pattern and some other connections related to the Vlach migrations in the middle ages. The writer Kekaumenos gives us an explanation of their origins in his Strategikon from the 11th century and claims that they are descendants from the Dacians and the Bessi. His statement was maybe anachronistic but I would not exclude that some Vlachs in the 11th century had a living oral tradition in this direction.

  6. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    There are some other correlations under Y3183. For example, BY5423 shows a migrational pattern and some other connections related to the Vlach migrations in the middle ages. The writer Kekaumenos gives us an explanation of their origins in his Strategikon from the 11th century and claims that they are descendants from the Dacians and the Bessi. His statement was maybe anachronistic but I would not exclude that some Vlachs in the 11th century had a living oral tradition in this direction.
    Unlikely.

    First of all, we have to keep in mind that 'Vlach' is an exonym. The Vlachs actually call themselves Aromanians or Romanians which simply means Roman. That along with their language means they were completely assimilated into the Roman Empire and culture. The medieval invasions cut them off completely from the Roman centers of power so the Vlachs became somewhat barbarised. What their pre-Roman origins are however can be said by their culture and customs they managed to keep.

    I can tell you of several such customs but as I don't have the time ATM I will quickly write about two of them.

    1. Rusalii - This custom was practiced by the Meglen Vlachs and the surrounding Bulgarian population. It is a combat dance called Rusalia and practiced around some religious holidays while the peasantry gave them presence and money. This custom was kept alive because unlike many other pagan customs, it's collections of money were directly given to the church and because of that it wasn't restricted by the church probably. The very name Rusalia means nothing in the Slavic languages but it means Pentecost in Aromanian and Meglen Vlach so I believe this custom and dance was taught by the Bulgarians from the Vlachs or very probably, the Vlachs were actually Bulgarized as the Bulgarian Empire and Church was dominating over the Vlachs.
    The first mentioning of this custom comes from an account of the archbishop of Ohrid Demetrios Chomatenos around the early 13-th century who condemned some killing in relation with festivals known as Rusalia and Brumalia. It is believed that Rusalia is a heritage of the ancient Roman festival of Rosalia while Brumalia in the account of Chomatenos is the ancient Roman festival of Brumalia which was again in relation with the Thracian or more specifically their God Dyonisius or Bachus.

    2. Martenica or Mărțișor - a tradition kept alive in Bulgaria, N.Macedonia, Greece, Romania and Moldova and which spread in all these countries was initiated by the Vlachs. The tradition is related to the ancient pagan history of the Balkan Peninsula and to all agricultural cults of nature. Some specific features of the ritual, especially tying the twisted white and red woolen threads, are a result of centuries-old tradition and suggest Thracian origins!
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-04-2021 at 07:47 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  8. #1095
    I cannot detect what in your explanations contradicts Kekaumenos claim that some of the Vlachs had Bessi origins.

  9. #1096
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    The writer Kekaumenos gives us an explanation of their origins in his Strategikon from the 11th century and claims that they are descendants from the Dacians and the Bessi. His statement was maybe anachronistic but I would not exclude that some Vlachs in the 11th century had a living oral tradition in this direction.
    I actually answered on your remark in bolded part...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  10. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    FTDNA kit 122515, I believe Bulgarian with origins from Macedonia. His distant relative is Austrian 348774.

    Balkans cluster shares:
    dys385a=17
    GATAH4=10
    dys438=11


    Also dys456=15 is slightly more common than 16, not sure if that also defines something in the cluster, it seems the entire E-Z16659 is defined by a backmutation there.

    You can see Bulgarian and Austrian also share dys447. Austrian doesn't share low H4. One Greek from Macedonia also has the old H4=11. That might be an indication he is the oldest Balkan haplotype, or his private mutation.
    So only one of this group is tested Y3183 for now? I do not exclude they form a subclade together, but it's also not that obvious from the data.

  11. #1098
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    All of these theories about E-V13 in Dorians, Sea Peoples, Bessi etc etc etc are unsupported by actual data and some are outright implausible (for example, Dorians as some E-V13 group). When aDNA studies occur we will learn more, but I wouldn't expect a model which will explain E-V13 as the hg of one particular group which spread it everywhere else.

    Instead of looking for theories without data, it's better to focus on the actual, documented migrations which took place. There's a lot of talk about basal clades and ancestral areas but admittedly for many samples even basic profiling which will tell us where their ancestors lived in the last 200 years doesn't exist. There's not much point in discussing distance between samples, when all you know about them comes from a flag icon on yfull.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 03-04-2021 at 09:46 PM.

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  13. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Instead of looking for theories without data, it's better to focus on the actual, documented migrations which took place.
    For example?

  14. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    All of these theories about E-V13 in Dorians, Sea Peoples, Bessi etc etc etc are unsupported by actual data and some are outright implausible (for examples, Dorians as some E-V13 group). When aDNA studies occur we will learn more, but I wouldn't expect a model which will explain E-V13 as the hg of one particular group which spread it everywhere else.

    Instead of looking for theories without data, it's better to focus on the actual, documented migrations which took place. There's a lot of talk about basal clades and ancestral areas but admittedly for many samples even basic profiling which will tell us where their ancestors lived in the last 200 years doesn't exist. There's not much point in discussing distance between samples, when all you know about them comes from a flag icon on yfull.
    We do have some interesting points/leaks so far.

    Total lack of E-V13 from Late Neolithic Bulgaria, Early Bronze Age and then every Thracian sample belonging to E-V13 starting from Early Iron Age.

    It's well known that Balkans was totally overrun by Danubian migrants during Late Bronze Age. So, in turn there is no better candidate to explain this changes than E-V13. Otherwise, do us a favor and tell us which Y-DNA do you propose as a factor in this migrations and changes?

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