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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    It's about the data. They don't confirm the theories about mass migrations/invasions of single groups which caused radical changes.
    Be careful. What they really have proven is that there were contacts and migrants for a longer time before the collapse. So like I said above, "the Barbarians" were at the doors and seem to have participated in various ways, from slaves, merchants to mercenaries and so on, in the pre-collapse society. This means it was not rapid influx, at least not necessarily, of unknown newcomers, but they were there already. Just like steppe people traded and some even lived among Tripolye Cucuteni, or Germanics and Sarmatians close by and in Roman settlements.
    That's what they really found. Whether these people already present took over, or there was no takeover, but just a collapse, or there were new tribes coming in from the North, or a combination thereof, the data they gathered doesn't tell. That's not what they can tell, because local people can adopt new ways, smaller scale migrations can cause a change, or a massive influx of newcomers can - or a combination and different scenarios for different regions and places.

    But don't say they have disproven the invasion, that's not the case from my point of view. They just have proven an earlier presence of tribals. But you could say the same about Germanics in Roman provinces, and some even argue for a "slow change", yet whole tribes with hundreds of thousands of people and tens of thousands of warriors actually invaded Roman provinces on various occasions nevertheless. The original change in the material culture was, oftentimes, less pronounced than in Greece at that period.

    So the last word has come from DNA studies, because this is the only source which can, without a doubt, prove or disprove whether a people was the same or changed quite a lot.

  2. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    "every Thracian sample belonging to E-V13 starting from Early Iron Age." A couple of points here. There are very few samples which have been recovered and we would have to check the context of each site before we place the label "Thracian" (or any label). We have (almost?) no samples from the western Balkans. When the sample size is so small, I think that conclusions should be very limited.
    E-V13 looking by the evidence in SNP basal diversity clearly is a group that started out in the Western Balkans. And then massively expanded to the Central/Eastern and Carpathian areas.

    Albanians display a completely irrational tendency to "Albananise" the entire E-V13. The reasons are several:
    - the victimology based autochthonism - sported by many many peoples, we were there before you, "until the bad invaders came". From my ideological POV invaders are not necessarily bad so..
    - to satisfy the determination of the great historian Enver Hoxha that Albanians are descended of Illyrians. And therefore we have to find an Illyrian connection for everything. It's not enough that we are 40, 50 % Illyrian, we have to be 80, no 90, no, 99, no 100 % Illyrian..

    E-V13 did experience an enormous expansion at multiple points, first one already in EBA. When we see analogies in other haplogroups, such expansions are almost always closely related to migratory events. See R-Z93 expansion, see R-L51 expansion etc.

    A nascent culture experiences a small growth and then their surroundings become too small, confined or resource lacking and they decide to go elsewhere. Having already built up numbers, developed a more aggressive way of life this groups had from an evolutionary perspective far exceeded its initial level. As such it becomes a serious threat to whatever natives it encounters during its expansion. So an expansion occurs, either the invader is strong enough to conquer the "natives" or the natives prevail.

    J-L283 has already had a similar expansion into the Western Balkans from a limited demographic base (Mokrin find). So they go from SE Pannonia into the W.Balkans. For E-V13 the pattern is opposite.

    To shorten. I don't care about Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks or whatever. I care that my haplogroup (E-V13) "kicks ass". If it expanded in the Western Balkans it cannot do that. Because there J-L283 already does that. And already we know E-V13 from aDNA that E-V13 has caused a massive population replacement in the Eastern Balkans. So the vector is obvious.

    "broder" had on multiple occasions espoused the view that E-V13 are "Pelasgian slaves" that were farming peacefully until being conquered by the Illyrians. This mimics the 15+ year old narrative that E-V13 is related to some phantom Pelasgian slaves and of course such notions are usually accompanied by "how can these bloody Africans be anything else" in their minds. How interesting that usually these propagators are not V13.

    Genetic evidence says they weren't conquered by any Illyrians. Because they expanded out of "Illyria" just before the coming of the J-L283 dominated culture..
    Last edited by Huban; 03-05-2021 at 01:37 AM.

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  4. #1113
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    And ofc I support the Cetina theory partly also because I want to claim that E-V13 spoke an Egyptian-like language in Dalmatia for thousands of years and had little to do with the G2a dominated cultures. When I was about 12 I knew most about Egyptian pyramids. And I do have some knowledge on Egyptian language too, so.. Its closest MENA relative is likely progenitor of the proto-Egyptian. There are some encouraging signs in that direction.

    Papazoglu mentioned that the only analogies for the Triballian king Hales are Egyptian. And these people should have been heavy with V13. But his historicity is not fully accepted.

  5. #1114
    Lol, here you again with your nonsense.

    I never spoke of 'Pelasgian Slaves'. Stop making stuff up, my Kuqi brother. Those discussions we had like over 7 or so years ago when we had little data about V13 and Y lineages in general. All I said then was that V13 looks like a native lineage to the Balkans - populations akin to Pelasgians etc. Meaning native farmers. That narrative hasn't changed much, now has it??

  6. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Lol, here you again with your nonsense.

    I never spoke of 'Pelasgian Slaves'. Stop making stuff up, my Kuqi brother. Those discussions we had like over 7 or so years ago when we had little data about V13 and Y lineages in general. All I said then was that V13 looks like a native lineage to the Balkans - populations akin to Pelasgians etc.
    Okay as it was a long time ago. Yet the V13 has its founding culture for sure, and that is most likely the early proto-Cetina culture. It's not some vague "Balkan" whatever thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    my Kuqi brother
    My cluster has a TMRCA on Peshter highlands exceeding 700 or more years with families without any Kuchi tradition. Imagine that, you phantasize about being descended of Lale Drekalov who is 4400 years away and yet 10 miles away you have people 500, 700 years away and you have no idea that you are related to them. Btw at that time (700 years ago) there was no Kuchi tribal area or Kuchi tribe, as the Kuchi tribe expanded from Cijevna river in mid 15th century. At that time the likely ancestor of Kuchi Petar Kuč was in the katun of Lješ Tuz near Shkoder.


    So lets review our closest relatives, those who we know who they are:
    - Berendei surnamed from a Bulgarian derived village on Pešter, 200 km away from Bulgarian border. TMRCA c. 500 ybp, this clusters locations match the 16th century voynuks from there (who actually carried my surname and my surname is at least 400 years old). btw they are also connected to two other Bulgarian/Berendei derived villages (it seems actually both are Turkic) there via their unique surname. Also match an Ottoman family locations who held my native village, who were connected to them. An explanation how my family was wealthy and was able to settle there. The progenitor of these voynuks carried a Kipchak name of C.Asian Iranian origins.
    - from another Bulgarian derived village on Pešter, 200 km away from Bulgarian border. TMRCA c. 700-800 ybp, right next to a Kipchak named mountain
    - Pečenjevce, near Leskovac , TMRCA c. 800-1000 ybp , origin unknown in literature, old surname possibly Turkic. Onomastic evidence clearly demonstrates the Berendei clan of same surname to the guy no.1 settled right there..

    And Ofc
    Bulgarian from Sofia TMRCA c. 800-1000 ybp
    Unknown ethnicity from Vojvodina TMRCA c. 800-1000 ybp

    So its Vojvodina -> Shop area -> Sandzak on a horseback. I guarantee you I am alot more Bulgarian than 90 % of Bulgarians on the internet fora going by direct paternal ancestry.

    Bulgarian 1253/54 incursion into my area is well attested and these are facts, I enjoy repeating them as they go my way 100 %. We are descended of that event. It seems we kept a very separate identity only 400, 500 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Meaning native farmers. That narrative hasn't changed much, now has it??
    Dalmatian Cardials were not farmers. Already from their beginnings they actually practiced more fishing and even kept plenty of cattle. Besides they wee the only ones who worshipped skulls among the Neolithic EEF's and today we all know why..
    Last edited by Huban; 03-05-2021 at 04:13 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Em...Robert Drews is the author of The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East and for many years has been opposed to the Anatolian hypothesis so I'm not sure how your comment about "leftist archaeologists" and the Kurgan theory is related to his work. Not that it's about what one author has to say or not. It's about the data. They don't confirm the theories about mass migrations/invasions of single groups which caused radical changes.

    Speaking of which (The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, p.39):
    Among specialists there is now a rough consensus that Aeolic developed in eastern Thessaly, which was - as John Chadwick proposed in an important article in 1956 - a "buffer zone" between North and South Greek. (..) It also appears (although on this point there is more debate) that ca. 1200 BC Aeolic and Doric were not yet - or not much -differentiated. Finally, there is considerable agreement that 1200 BC North and South Greek were linguistically not very far apart: speakers of North and South Greek were more readily intelligible (..)
    Anyway he is opposed by majority. But, the point is that the way you are opposing so much any link of E-V13 gives me an insight who you are, and what Y-DNA do you belong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Dalmatian Cardials were not farmers. Already from their beginnings they actually practiced more fishing and even kept plenty of cattle. Besides they wee the only ones who worshipped skulls among the Neolithic EEF's and today we all know why..
    The progenitor of E-V13, E-L618 was probably the reason farming was spread in Anatolia like an idea. Check archeological records, no single chronological record for any proto-idea of farming in Anatolia or Iran. It was rather in Mesolithic Egypt where it started first and foremost, and due to desertification event probably they left their homeland for better lands. Mushabian expansion is the best possible candidate for E-L618.
    Last edited by Hawk; 03-05-2021 at 06:21 AM.

  8. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Here are other Bessi that were recorded as stationed in Germany, Sardina, Italy, Spain, Greece, Pannonia:

    https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...uche?qs=bessus
    Bessus as name was used by Iranics as well: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Bessus

  9. #1118
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    Can we stop this childish behavior like my haplogroup is better than yours and they came and exterminated all the others and I know it all?
    We certainly don't want this thread to be closed but to keep discussing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    There is also a Serb with a tradition of descend from Montenegro. He has an unusual haplotype and fully matches one Macedonain Greek. He is E-A7135*, A8555-. So if that Macedonian is E-A7136, there are five separate Y3183 clades in Greeks, although you only see those from Laconia at YFull due to their poor level of testing.
    .
    This Serb matches me, he is 11/12 with me and yet a different haplogroup. His haplotype is nothing special and not that distinctive. Where is the Greek tested? Is it from a public study or a private test?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  11. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What about Greek and Roman colonists in Albania by the way? We know a slight influence from the North West and the strong Albanian influence in parts of Greece. But what about the other direction in Antiquity?
    At Rrenjet.com that has by far the largest sample of Albanians as well as the largest WGT sample among Albanians there is no indication thus far of greek DNA moving up. It seems dna moved down and cultural/linguistic influence moved north. In some cases you could argue about relations between Illyrians and Thracians but there not much from the greeks to albanians/Illyrians.
    Even the J2a that are in the albanian population don't have any meaningful connections to the greek subclades as of now.
    Last edited by gjergj; 03-05-2021 at 08:40 AM.

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  13. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Interesting, this is a branch with a modal haplotype. Nevertheless among Bulgarians there are three separate E-Y3183*, S2972- clades: E-BY5350, E-BY174450 and as of yet an unprofiled cluster with an SNP pack. Interestingly like E-BY174450 who cluster with a German, they also have a cousin in Austria.

    @Rafc E-BY174450 is not such a small cluster. In addition to Bulgarian with BigY, there is another FTDNA Bulgarian belonging to it and they are not close (8/37). There is also a Romanian (9/37 and 6/37 with these). Due to distinct STR profile, there are multiple additional Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, Romanian, and a N.Macedonian from scientific papers.

    The third unprofiled E-Y3183* cluster has even more members: North Macedonians, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, Ruthenian, three Macedonian Greeks and three Greeks from Korinthia who are of non-Arvanite origin (they were tested in a study about Greek colonization where the people of Arvanite origin were excluded).

    Chances are your second E-Y3183* Albanian from Tirana belongs to one of these clusters. Considering the general diversity of this branch, it is quite unlikely these are Antiquity locals in the Western Balkans. E-Y3183 has also various downstream branches in Bulgaria, and a cluster of Basarabi from Romania belongs to one of these isolated clades. Only the Kuchi branch seems to have an older presence in the Western Balkans, most likely arrivals in LBA/EIA.

    Rather similarly to Shala R-PF7563>Y83965 they might even fit into some Bessi of Gottfried Schram.

    There are E-V13 Albanians who do not appear to be of Illyrian origin at all. For example the E-PH1173 Albanians (dys439=9), and also E-FGC71980 Albanian clusters between the Greeks, and their c. 2000 year distant relative in Bulgaria..
    Don't be soo sure about Shala Y83965 being Thracian. Their spread has happened form Kosova region not from Bulgaria. not all their results are in Yfull.

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