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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    Don't be soo sure about Shala Y83965 being Thracian. Their spread has happened form Kosova region not from Bulgaria. not all their results are in Yfull.
    Just to give you an insight of how unreliable yfull is as source of basing a general opinion is that on the top/root of Y-DNA E branching sits the Belorusian flag: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E/

    It's not even meant for that purpose because it's ever changing.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Hawk For This Useful Post:

     Megalophias (03-05-2021)

  3. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    E-V13 looking by the evidence in SNP basal diversity clearly is a group that started out in the Western Balkans. And then massively expanded to the Central/Eastern and Carpathian areas.

    Albanians display a completely irrational tendency to "Albananise" the entire E-V13. The reasons are several:
    - the victimology based autochthonism - sported by many many peoples, we were there before you, "until the bad invaders came". From my ideological POV invaders are not necessarily bad so..
    - to satisfy the determination of the great historian Enver Hoxha that Albanians are descended of Illyrians. And therefore we have to find an Illyrian connection for everything. It's not enough that we are 40, 50 % Illyrian, we have to be 80, no 90, no, 99, no 100 % Illyrian..

    E-V13 did experience an enormous expansion at multiple points, first one already in EBA. When we see analogies in other haplogroups, such expansions are almost always closely related to migratory events. See R-Z93 expansion, see R-L51 expansion etc.

    A nascent culture experiences a small growth and then their surroundings become too small, confined or resource lacking and they decide to go elsewhere. Having already built up numbers, developed a more aggressive way of life this groups had from an evolutionary perspective far exceeded its initial level. As such it becomes a serious threat to whatever natives it encounters during its expansion. So an expansion occurs, either the invader is strong enough to conquer the "natives" or the natives prevail.

    J-L283 has already had a similar expansion into the Western Balkans from a limited demographic base (Mokrin find). So they go from SE Pannonia into the W.Balkans. For E-V13 the pattern is opposite.

    To shorten. I don't care about Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks or whatever. I care that my haplogroup (E-V13) "kicks ass". If it expanded in the Western Balkans it cannot do that. Because there J-L283 already does that. And already we know E-V13 from aDNA that E-V13 has caused a massive population replacement in the Eastern Balkans. So the vector is obvious.

    "broder" had on multiple occasions espoused the view that E-V13 are "Pelasgian slaves" that were farming peacefully until being conquered by the Illyrians. This mimics the 15+ year old narrative that E-V13 is related to some phantom Pelasgian slaves and of course such notions are usually accompanied by "how can these bloody Africans be anything else" in their minds. How interesting that usually these propagators are not V13.

    Genetic evidence says they weren't conquered by any Illyrians. Because they expanded out of "Illyria" just before the coming of the J-L283 dominated culture..
    Stop connecting Hoxha and all these grand theories and putting albanians in one pot.
    There is no indication that west balkan was the source of E-v13 expansion in the rest of the balkans. and its not likely.
    If you want to argue about one theory of one specific albanian that you disagree go for it.

  4. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Bessus as name was used by Iranics as well: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Bessus
    The Bessus appearing in these inscriptions (Natione Bessus, i.e. for example) are Thracians. Romans came to use Bessi as a general term for all Thracians.

  5. #1124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    This Serb matches me, he is 11/12 with me and yet a different haplogroup. His haplotype is nothing special and not that distinctive. Where is the Greek tested? Is it from a public study or a private test?
    You might familiarize yourself with the age of mutations and the sequence of mutations at different levels. That one difference he has with you at Y12 is a difference that defines your own cluster and so it makes sense you are indeed not related. The other matching STR is actually your own recent private mutation (439), so not of much relevance.

    On YFiler STR's you are with this Serb at 13/16. Macedonian Greek is from that study I mentioned and his GD with the Serb is 16/16. Serb lacks dys635 being Y37, you are with this Greek 13/17. Unlike some of the clades I mentioned this Serb has no certain relatives who tested more STR's so we don't know the age of some of his mutations, nevertheless identical haplotype while having 4 non-modal STR's might be a good indication of a link. If it exists it must be quite recent.

    Serb does have various unusual STR's, such as H4, 456 etc.

  6. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Em...Robert Drews is the author of The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East and for many years has been opposed to the Anatolian hypothesis so I'm not sure how your comment about "leftist archaeologists" and the Kurgan theory is related to his work.
    Why is the Anatolian Hypothesis considered "leftist"? Colin Renfrew is a known member of the Conservative Party. If we're going to use politically-charged words at least they should have meaning.

  7. #1126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    You might familiarize yourself with the age of mutations and the sequence of mutations at different levels. That one difference he has with you at Y12 is a difference that defines your own cluster and so it makes sense you are indeed not related. The other matching STR is actually your own recent private mutation (439), so not of much relevance.

    On YFiler STR's you are with this Serb at 13/16. Macedonian Greek is from that study I mentioned and his GD with the Serb is 16/16. Serb lacks dys635 being Y37, you are with this Greek 13/17. Unlike some of the clades I mentioned this Serb has no certain relatives who tested more STR's so we don't know the age of some of his mutations, nevertheless identical haplotype while having 4 non-modal STR's might be a good indication of a link. If it exists it must be quite recent.

    Serb does have various unusual STR's, such as H4, 456 etc.
    Well can you tell us something more about the mutation rates?
    My modesty knows about studies which produced somewhat different rates of mutations but I like to use these rates as middle point compromise between different studies:

     
    Code:
    FTDNA Order(1st 111)/Long Name/Short Name/Mut Rate(Chandler/Little/SMGF)/Rank by Slowness Description
    1 DYS393 393 0.00076 #34 Medium-Slow
    2 DYS390 390 0.00311 #81 Fast
    3 DYS19 19 0.00151 #55 Medium-Slow
    4 DYS391 391 0.00265 #76 Medium-Fast
    5 DYS385a 385a 0.00226 #68 Medium-Fast
    6 DYS385b 385b 0.00226 #69 Medium-Fast
    7 DYS426 426 0.00009 #6 Very Slow
    8 DYS388 388 0.00022 #17 Slow
    9 DYS439 439 0.00477 #94 Fast
    10 DYS389i 389i 0.00186 #58 Medium-Fast
    11 DYS392 392 0.00052 #28 Slow
    12 DYS389ii 389ii-i 0.00242 #71 Medium-Fast


    The marker the Serb has a miss match with me is DYS389ii. It's a medium-fast marker that can be reliable for defining clusters but also not very reliable because of the medium-fast mutation rate. In other words, you can't be for certain about your predictions based on markers like this. By the way, can you tell me more about the age of mutations? My modesty doesn't have much clue about this so it would like to learn more...

    I have two close matches who are actually very close relatives. One of the matches is a son of the brother of the other match. They have mutations on the marker DYS439. One has 12 and the other 14. This marker has a mutation rate of 0.00477 which is double of that for DYS389ii. By the way, I already mentioned that cluster of Englishmen who are tottaly unrelated clade and yet are 12/12, 23/25 with me. I also have PowerPlex Y exact matches in England, Chile, Spain, Serbia etc. Do you really think all these are related to me? I have one step Yfiler neighbor in Chile. Should I make conclusions that this guy is of the same cluster as me? It's a guess work, what you are doing, NOT really for certain and NOT confirmed by SNP matching. Especially for E-V13, you can't be for certain with low number of STR markers because as it's the case with I-Y3120 it had a boom and diversification of a bigger scale where you will find similar haplotypes all over, especially in older clades such as S7461, Y16729 etc...
    DYS635 is a fast marker with mutation rate of 0.00373, something similar to DYS439 I explained above. The Greek might have complete convergence in the haplotype with the Serb and yet to be of totally unrelated clade. It's not impossible, it's actually very possible based on such a low number of markers.

    So, can you pls share the haplotype of the Greek to have a better look of how closely they match?
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-05-2021 at 10:16 AM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  8. #1127
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    By the way, I just run the markers of the Serb in yhrd and he has 35 matches in PowerPlex Y, not enough markers to run Yfiller. He indeed has 1 match in Greece but also 2 matches in Croatia. I mean, I can't tell anything for certain looking at this...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  9. #1128
    Quote: "The Bessus appearing in these inscriptions (Natione Bessus, i.e. for example) are Thracians. Romans came to use Bessi as a general term for all Thracians."

    I do not think that this is accurate. It´s rather the other way around. The Romans used "Thracian" as an umbrella term for many distinct tribes in this area but the Bessi had a very long lasting sense of a specific identity. We are talking about tombstones and self-descriptions by family members not about categories in official documents. Have a look at the section "Thracians: Mountainmen and Bandits" in this dissertation (pages 102-112): https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/111635
    Last edited by mikulic33; 03-05-2021 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    By the way, I just run the markers of the Serb in yhrd and he has 35 matches in PowerPlex Y, not enough markers to run Yfiller. He indeed has 1 match in Greece but also 2 matches in Croatia. I mean, I can't tell anything for certain looking at this...
    You do not need to have all markers to run Yfiler. Just leave 635 out. There is one match from Peponia in the Serres province.

  11. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    You do not need to have all markers to run Yfiler. Just leave 635 out. There is one match from Peponia in the Serres province.
    Ok, I can't make comparison with many samples as I don't have the time so here are three Yfiler haplotypes:

    Mine: DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(21) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Greek: DYS456(15) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(30) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(22) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Serb: DYS456(15) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(30) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(n/a) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(10) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)

    I'm 13/17 with the Greek and two of the differences are on a same very fast mutating marker DYS456=0.00735, while one is on a fast mutating DYS635=0.00373. The last difference is on a medium-fast marker DYS389ii=0.00242.

    The Greek and the Serb are 15/16 while one marker DYS635 is n/a for the Serb. The difference is on a medium-fast mutating marker Y-GATA-H4=0.00208 which is still more slowly than DYS389ii. In this situation the Greek and the Serb might have one more difference in the face of DYS635 but we don't know that. On top of that, my cluster is not well defined so I don't know the age of this DYS389ii=29 and how far back in time can be traced.
    My point is, you can't tell for sure this Greek is A7136+ based on these markers and superficial similarity with the Serb, something which Huban does.

    On the other hand I have a 15/17 match in Chile:
    DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(12) DYS635(22) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    and a 12/12 PowerPlex Y match in Spain.
    Should I make conclusions that these are my closest matches? Perhaps, perhaps not. You can't tell for sure until a profiled SNP match shows up...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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