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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1131
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    Let me show more closely why does Yfiler doesn't work always. Two haplotypes, SNP profiled, 14/17 in Yfiler.

    Mine(Y16729): DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(21) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Englishmen(S7461): DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(23) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(12) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)

    The exact difference in YGATAH4 between the two haplotypes I've written above and also two differences in the marker DYS635, the one which is n/a. And totally different subclades. I think this is clear enough now...
    Last edited by Aspar; 03-05-2021 at 02:32 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  2. #1132
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    J-M67

    Serbia Croatia
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Ok, I can't make comparison with many samples as I don't have the time so here are three Yfiler haplotypes:

    Mine: DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(21) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Greek: DYS456(15) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(30) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(22) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Serb: DYS456(15) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(30) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(n/a) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(10) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)

    I'm 13/17 with the Greek and two of the differences are on a same very fast mutating marker DYS456=0.00735, while one is on a fast mutating DYS635=0.00373. The last difference is on a medium-fast marker DYS389ii=0.00242.

    The Greek and the Serb are 15/16 while one marker DYS635 is n/a for the Serb. The difference is on a medium-fast mutating marker Y-GATA-H4=0.00208 which is still more slowly than DYS389ii. In this situation the Greek and the Serb might have one more difference in the face of DYS635 but we don't know that. On top of that, my cluster is not well defined so I don't know the age of this DYS389ii=29 and how far back in time can be traced.
    My point is, you can't tell for sure this Greek is A7136+ based on these markers and superficial similarity with the Serb, something which Huban does.

    On the other hand I have a 15/17 match in Chile:
    DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(12) DYS635(22) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    and a 12/12 PowerPlex Y match in Spain.
    Should I make conclusions that these are my closest matches? Perhaps, perhaps not. You can't tell for sure until a profiled SNP match shows up...
    these are your closest Serbian matches from studies:
    distance ID Study Population SNP/official nevgen N DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS437 DYS448 YGATAH4 DYS456 DYS438 DYS635
    0 22 Stevanovic et al. 2009 Serbia West E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 $ 13 11 29 $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    1 14 Stevanovic et al. 2009 Serbia West E1b1b > V13 3 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ 13 11 29 $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    3 29 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 17 10 21
    4 Se126 Regueiro et al. 2012 Serbia Central(Belgrade?) EV13 E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-17 14 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 17 10 23
    4 82 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-17 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 46 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 56 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 18 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 10 17 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 25 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 27 15 14 20 11 17 10 22

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to slavomir For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (03-05-2021)

  4. #1133
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    J-M67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Let me show more closely why does Yfiler doesn't work always. Two haplotypes, SNP profiled, 14/17 in Yfiler.

    Mine(Y16729): DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(21) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(11) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)
    Englishmen(S7461): DYS456(17) DYS389I(13) DYS390(24) DYS389II(29) DYS458(15) DYS19(13) DYS385(16, 19) DYS393(13) DYS391(10) DYS439(13) DYS635(23) DYS392(11) YGATAH4(12) DYS437(14) DYS438(10) DYS448(20)

    The exact difference in YGATAH4 between the two haplotypes I've written above and also two differences in the marker DYS635, the one which is n/a. And totally different subclades. I think this is clear enough now...
    is your YGATAH4 in the FTDNA format? FTDNA reports YGATAH4 decreased by 1 compared to yfiler and powerplex23.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to slavomir For This Useful Post:

     losAntonis (03-05-2021)

  6. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Well can you tell us something more about the mutation rates?
    My modesty knows about studies which produced somewhat different rates of mutations but I like to use these rates as middle point compromise between different studies:
    here are mutation rates of the yfiler and powerplex markers, also from multipel studies:
    https://yhrd.org/pages/resources/mutation_rates

  7. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    these are your closest Serbian matches from studies:
    distance ID Study Population SNP/official nevgen N DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS437 DYS448 YGATAH4 DYS456 DYS438 DYS635
    0 22 Stevanovic et al. 2009 Serbia West E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 $ 13 11 29 $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    1 14 Stevanovic et al. 2009 Serbia West E1b1b > V13 3 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ 13 11 29 $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    3 29 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 17 10 21
    4 Se126 Regueiro et al. 2012 Serbia Central(Belgrade?) EV13 E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-17 14 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 17 10 23
    4 82 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-17 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 46 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 56 Todorovic et al. 2014 Serbia Aleksandrovac E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 16 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 18 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 24 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 10 17 10 21
    4 Mirabal et al. 2010 Serbia Central(Sumadija?) E1b1b E1b1b > V13 1 13 25 13 10 16-19 12 13 11 27 15 14 20 11 17 10 22
    Great...
    And how many of these are actually my SNP matches? Probably less than two, which is the main thing why I opposed Huban.

    Anyway, in the last three years I've been quite active on these forums, although I've started to read them since more than ten years ago when I still didn't have a clue what SNP or STR is. Therefore many probably encountered my story on some of these forums which coupled with my DNA results just confirmed the ethnographic material I relied upon in finding more about myself. It also made me to be a better man and see the truth from different angles. What I learned the most is that nation is a feeling of belonging, NOT a DNA thing and that I'm a mix of different ingredients like a good smoothie however this doesn't NOT affect my sense of belonging. One of these ingredients, especially the one which y-dna chromosome I carry today was most probably in the region of Macedonia since long time ago having been bilingual in both Vlach and Bulgarian but originally Vlach speaking.

    That I might have real matches in Serbia is not far fetched because it's a neighboring country after all and migrations happened throughout the history. But such kind of matches exist in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania and all of them are and belong to different nations than I do which is the good thing about DNA that turns all that racist and nationalistic mockery upside-down. Becouse belonging is NOT a DNA thing as I said earlier.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Aspar For This Useful Post:

     Bruzmi (03-05-2021),  digital_noise (03-05-2021),  dosas (03-05-2021),  losAntonis (03-05-2021),  Michał (03-06-2021),  peloponnesian (03-05-2021)

  9. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    is your YGATAH4 in the FTDNA format? FTDNA reports YGATAH4 decreased by 1 compared to yfiler and powerplex23.
    Both of these haplotypes are in FTDNA format!
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  10. #1137
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    J-M67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Great...
    And how many of these are actually my SNP matches? Probably less than two, which is the main thing why I opposed Huban.

    Anyway, in the last three years I've been quite active on these forums, although I've started to read them since more than ten years ago when I still didn't have a clue what SNP or STR is. Therefore many probably encountered my story on some of these forums which coupled with my DNA results just confirmed the ethnographic material I relied upon in finding more about myself. It also made me to be a better man and see the truth from different angles. What I learned the most is that nation is a feeling of belonging, NOT a DNA thing and that I'm a mix of different ingredients like a good smoothie however this doesn't NOT affect my sense of belonging. One of these ingredients, especially the one which y-dna chromosome I carry today was most probably in the region of Macedonia since long time ago having been bilingual in both Vlach and Bulgarian but originally Vlach speaking.

    That I might have real matches in Serbia is not far fetched because it's a neighboring country after all and migrations happened throughout the history. But such kind of matches exist in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania and all of them are and belong to different nations than I do which is the good thing about DNA that turns all that racist and nationalistic mockery upside-down. Becouse belonging is NOT a DNA thing as I said earlier.
    so what's the deepest subclade which can be predicted for these, in your opinion? just E-V13?

  11. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    so what's the deepest subclade which can be predicted for these, in your opinion? just E-V13?
    TBH I don't think you can tell for certain what they are downstream of BY3880. However I'm out of here for today. You might want to ask some more experience people who are lurking this forum. Some of them are administrators and were dealing with thousands of haplotypes in relation to E-V13.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  12. #1139
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    E-CTS9320-Y20805*
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    H7c1a

    Albania Kosovo
    As my posts here mostly restrict to posting updates on E-BY4526, I will continue this tradtion : in BY4529 we have a guy from Finland joining, rising the scandinavian presence. Each new result rather confuses than contributes to clearing up the path and origin of this clade.^^
    So any new bids due to this result ?

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to BukeKrypEZemer For This Useful Post:

     ShpataEMadhe (03-22-2021)

  14. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by BukeKrypEZemer View Post
    As my posts here mostly restrict to posting updates on E-BY4526, I will continue this tradtion : in BY4529 we have a guy from Finland joining, rising the scandinavian presence. Each new result rather confuses than contributes to clearing up the path and origin of this clade.^^
    So any new bids due to this result ?
    Maybe it was picked up/assimilated by Slavs in the North Balkans during the early migration era and carrying it north with northern Slavs who injected it into Finns, and Scandinavians through the mixed Slavic/Scandinavian Viking settlements?

    Just a guess since TMRCA were removed. Not sure what the distance everyone has with each other.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Korabi For This Useful Post:

     BukeKrypEZemer (03-06-2021)

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