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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Tosk/South Albanians don't have significant level of J2b2, it doesn't exceed ~8%. Probably J2b2 was confined to Illyrians from Northern Montenegro and Dalmatian regions more.
    There are J2b lineages in Greek mainland as well.Albanians in general have the trinity of EV13+R1b+J2a and J2b.Now what lineages are native balkan and what lineages are associated with Slavs and Vlachs(Aromanians) i have no idea.Some I2din and R1a thought are probably more associated with Slavic settlement.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Are you joking? Dodecanese Greeks main Y-DNA is E-V13 (one Greek member here from Dodecanese is E-V13), it reaches around 32.5%, rafc posted somewhere after gathering data from national geographic or some other projects.
    Any scientific studies done on Y-DNA of Dodecanese?

    I'm mainly going off my 23andMe relatives the majority of which are Dodecanese islanders. Among those, E-V13 is confined mostly to distant mainland matches. Out of those from the Dodecanese, most with E-V13 are coming from the island of Symi. So each island probably has a different haplogroup distribution.

    Here is the distribution among my 23andMe matches whose paternal line is Greek:

    Code:
    J2a	21.63%	53
    G1	13.06%	32
    R1b	13.06%	32
    I2	11.02%	27
    E1b1b	10.20%	25
    R1a	9.80%	24
    J1	7.76%	19
    G2	6.53%	16
    I1	4.90%	12
    T	2.04%	5
    Many of those E1b1b aren't E-V13 either. And if I filtered out mainlanders it would be much smaller. The only thing probably inflated in this is G1 due to a G-CTS11562 clade being a major founding lineage in Kalymnos where most of my matches come from.

    Take this with a grain of salt of course, but if E-V13 is so high in the Dodecanese it certainly skipped the places my ancestors came from. It would be good to see a proper study on the haplogroup distributions for Rhodes and Kos, to see how it differs from this. I personally expect most Dodecanese islands to be most similar to Crete in the distributions, although you may be right and on average E-V13 could be more popular there than what I've seen.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think so too, since they were those more influenced by older layers of Balkanics and earlier Tumulus waves, whereas the more Northern Illyrian-related groups and Thracians were more influenced by Urnfield and Fluted Ware horizons (wider sense). Its not just possible, but even likely, that among the different tribes and clans different haplogroups predominated at that point in time.
    Well, i quoted once a piece of text from Albanian archeologists, they think the LBA Urnfielders cam via ships directly in South Albania where the influence was heavier, for instance South Albanians like Labs who are more pure South Albanians have like ~33% of E-V13 and they all belong within this clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/ or some specific E-V13>Z5018 if the rrenjet.com project is right about it.
    Last edited by Hawk; 11-18-2020 at 10:57 AM.

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  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, i quoted once a piece of text from Albanian archeologists, they think the LBA Urnfielders cam via ships directly in South Albania where the influence was heavier, for instance South Albanians like Labs who are more pure South Albanians have like ~32% of E-V13 and they all belong within this clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/ if the rrenjet.com project is right about it.
    That's exactly the kind of "chaotic distribution" we might expect coming from the EIA expansions too, like one tribe or clan having a high frequency of E-V13, another of J2 and so on. Not saying that what you describe is the direct consequence of such a direct journey, but its of course possible. Like in other people too, same thing in Iranians and Germanics for example. Different tribes and clans are likely to have different haplotypes, especially after dispersion.

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  7. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's exactly the kind of "chaotic distribution" we might expect coming from the EIA expansions too, like one tribe or clan having a high frequency of E-V13, another of J2 and so on. Not saying that what you describe is the direct consequence of such a direct journey, but its of course possible. Like in other people too, same thing in Iranians and Germanics for example. Different tribes and clans are likely to have different haplotypes, especially after dispersion.
    Yeah, i think you are right. Balkans have been hit from Justinian Plague and later on migrations reducing E-V13 and probably some specific subclades which didn't survive.

  8. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    Any scientific studies done on Y-DNA of Dodecanese?

    I'm mainly going off my 23andMe relatives the majority of which are Dodecanese islanders. Among those, E-V13 is confined mostly to distant mainland matches. Out of those from the Dodecanese, most with E-V13 are coming from the island of Symi. So each island probably has a different haplogroup distribution.

    Here is the distribution among my 23andMe matches whose paternal line is Greek:

    Code:
    J2a	21.63%	53
    G1	13.06%	32
    R1b	13.06%	32
    I2	11.02%	27
    E1b1b	10.20%	25
    R1a	9.80%	24
    J1	7.76%	19
    G2	6.53%	16
    I1	4.90%	12
    T	2.04%	5
    Many of those E1b1b aren't E-V13 either. And if I filtered out mainlanders it would be much smaller. The only thing probably inflated in this is G1 due to a G-CTS11562 clade being a major founding lineage in Kalymnos where most of my matches come from.

    Take this with a grain of salt of course, but if E-V13 is so high in the Dodecanese it certainly skipped the places my ancestors came from. It would be good to see a proper study on the haplogroup distributions for Rhodes and Kos, to see how it differs from this. I personally expect most Dodecanese islands to be most similar to Crete in the distributions, although you may be right and on average E-V13 could be more popular there than what I've seen.
    This G1 looks very mysterious. Wondering how It ended up there. Btw keep in mind that some lineages there coming from mainland Greeks. Its very well known that Greek islands received a mainland migration at Ottoman times.During Ottoman period there were migrations of Greek mainlanders to Anatolia(Smyrna, Poli etc) and to the Greek islands as well. That probably explains IMO the Slavic/Balkanic input in Crete and to Greek islands especially Dodecanese. I don't think there were Barbarian migrations and movements who arrived straightway to islands and Crete. That is Also the case with Anatolian Greeks who are a combination of Mainland Greeks and Greek islanders.

  9. #117
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    This is the breakdown I calculated years ago based on the now defunct Genographic project. Samples sizes for some regions are small, but it gives an idea:
    7CW4d04.jpg
    Note that E-M215 contains other groups than V13. I can see if I can find back data on V13 specifically (but the pool will be bit smaller)

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  11. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    This is the breakdown I calculated years ago based on the now defunct Genographic project. Samples sizes for some regions are small, but it gives an idea:
    7CW4d04.jpg
    Note that E-M215 contains other groups than V13. I can see if I can find back data on V13 specifically (but the pool will be bit smaller)
    I went through some samples on FTDNA and YFull and think its remarkable how many Armenians being tested for many of the major V13 clades. I wrote about it here:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post720880

    They also mention that the majority of Armenian E1b is not E-V13, but a minority is, and it seems to be EIA related too, like most clades are no matter where. What's your take on Armenians, primarily Greek derived, due to sampling bias with more Armenians getting tested, or is there more to it, like a common source in the IA?

  12. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I am not against that people from Albania or to northwest balkans arrived and brought new weapons,customs,policies,warfare culture and stuff(also EV13 lineages) but we have to wait for archeologists and genetistics first.
    In my opinion arrival of E-V13 to Greece in EIA did not go through Albania, but through what is today North Macedonia.

    I base this assumption on drop in E-V13 frequency among Tosks, compared to both Ghegs (North of them), and Epirotes (South of them). Tosks also have higher frequencies of pre-E-V13 haplogroups like G-P15 or J-M410, compared to Ghegs. So it looks like there is no continuity of E-V13 when going through Albania and Epirus.
    On the other hand, Northern Macedonians have significant frequency of E-V13, which means it was even higher before the Slavs came in Early Middle Ages.
    Last edited by Bane; 11-18-2020 at 02:06 PM.

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  14. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    In my opinion arrival of E-V13 to Greece in EIA did not go through Albania, but through what is today North Macedonia.

    I base this assumption on drop in E-V13 frequency among Tosks, compared to both Ghegs (North of them), and Epirotes (South of them). Tosks also have higher frequencies of pre-E-V13 haplogroups like G-P15 or J-M410, compared Ghegs. So it looks like there is no continuity of E-V13 when going through Albania and Epirus.
    On the other hand, Northern Macedonians have significant frequency of E-V13, which means it was even higher before the Slavs came in Early Middle Ages.
    The main Tosk Y-DNA is E-V13. Probably it was even higher if not the assimilation of I2a/R1a/I1 Slavs.

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