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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also this is really insincere, as if Matzinger is arguing the same thing, but just using different terminology. Matzinger is explicitly saying that Albanian descends from neither Illyrian or Thracian, but a third group:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post755652
    Brother, Matzinger is using the same exact argument (which you can read for yourself above and verify that it is indeed the same argument) under a different label. The two proposed etymologies about the Beskidy which don't involve a Latin loanward, both presuppose a *beškā or *be(r)ska which could only have existed in the early AD centuries. (I hope that it was explained in detail) But this is where Matzinger unintentionally contradicts himself:

    Matzinger says that Beskidy is perhaps linked to bjeshkë via which '"a later contact between the Pre-Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Baltic and Slavonic ones could easily be understood". Both non-Latin proposed etymologies which are linked to an ancestral form of Albanian presuppose that /sk/ evolved into /shk/ as a pretty normal development.

    But in his argument in favor of Albanian being a Paleo-Balkan language different from Illyrian, he uses as an argument that /sk/ could not have developed in Albanian as /shk/ therefore toponyms like Shkodra, Shkumbin and others can only have been adopted into Albanian which according to him only evolved /sk/ as /h/. Hence, if the toponym recorded as Scodra was part of the lexicon of Proto-Albanians it would have evolved into something like *Hadër according to him. ( La fonologia storica di Shkodër esclude così l'ipotesi di una formazione dell'ethnos albanese dall'illirico e lo sviluppo dell'illirico nell'albanese come lo assume la teoria dell'autoctonia, perché nel quadro di questa teoria la forma albanese dell'antico nome Scodra dovrebbe mostrare sviluppi fonologici più vecchi, cioè gli sviluppi delle parole ereditate: *sk > albanese h e *ó > albanese a (vedi sopra 2.1) ) Therefore, he concludes that Albanian was not spoken near coastal Illyria, but in the Dardanian hinterland up to the area near the present-day Serbia-Bulgaria border.

    As you can understand for yourself, this is a contradiction because his argument about Beskidy (hence in favor of an unattested other Paleo-Balkan branch) presupposes an evolution /sk/ to /shk/ while his argument against it being Illyrian presupposes that /sk/ didn't evolve as /shk/. And the area in which he places Albanian presupposes that toponyms which contain /sk/ developed eventually as /shk/ (Scardus>Sharr, Scupi>Shkupi).

    So what's going on here? In the original argument of Çabej et al., this is not problem because Albanian developed /sk/ in different ways in different circumstances. Demiraj (2006), The origin of the Albanians linguistically investigated writes: The place-name Shkodër - Shkodr-a, as compared to the anciently evidenced form Scodra, has also developed in harmony with the evolution of the phonetic system of Albanian (..) It has been acknowledged that the consonantal cluster */sk-/ has evolved to /h/ only in IE inherited words, that is in words pertaining to a very ancient prehistorical period. But this consonantal cluster of relatively later periods including that of contacts with Old Greek and Latin has regularly yielded /shk/ in Albanian (..) (read pages 138-140)

    The oronym Sharr evolved from the form attested as Scardus which comes from PIE *(s)kerH- which as *skardā also produced hardhje (as in Matzinger's hypothesis about Shkodra). In addition, Proto-Albanian *skera produced shqerr and shkierr and Scodra and Scupi became Shkodra and Shkupi in a very "linear" development model. These developmentS could not have happened in any other language and later adopted into Albanian. Toponyms like Scardus exist in many regions in the western Balkans but all as they came into contact with Slavic languages, they underwent metathesis. Hence: Skradnik (Sandzak, Serbia), Skradno (Bosnia), Skradin (Croatia)

    The fact that Albanian developed /sk/ in different ways to me shows that as a living language, it developed new dialectal innovations in particular regions.

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  3. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    late bronze age has these thracians, see below...no Haplogroup E though


    I0700
    mtDNA: T2e
    Y-DNA: T1a1a

    I1108
    mtDNA: T2e
    Y-DNA: T1a1

    I1109
    mtDNA: J2b1

    I1113
    mtDNA: U5a1c

    I1295
    mtDNA: J1c
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

    I1297
    mtDNA: H5b

    I3879
    mtDNA: H
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

    I2431
    mtDNA: N1b2
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1c1a
    5800-5400 calBCE


    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I2430
    mtDNA: K1a26
    Y-DNA: R1b1a
    4545-4260 calBCE


    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I2175
    mtDNA: K1c1
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b1

    I2176
    mtDNA: U1a1
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b
    3328-3015 calBCE



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  5. #1193
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    Similar scenario as I2a2-Din i agree, a single man fathering many sons, and that single man didn't hold any power or influence but instead spoke an IE dialect. Then a founder effect after hundred of years will explain the unknowns.

    Either this, or a very specific group making alliances either with one or several IE groups.

  6. #1194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Brother, Matzinger is using the same exact argument (which you can read for yourself above and verify that it is indeed the same argument) under a different label. The two proposed etymologies about the Beskidy which don't involve a Latin loanward, both presuppose a *beškā or *be(r)ska which could only have existed in the early AD centuries. (I hope that it was explained in detail) But this is where Matzinger unintentionally contradicts himself:

    Matzinger says that Beskidy is perhaps linked to bjeshkë via which '"a later contact between the Pre-Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Baltic and Slavonic ones could easily be understood". Both non-Latin proposed etymologies which are linked to an ancestral form of Albanian presuppose that /sk/ evolved into /shk/ as a pretty normal development.

    But in his argument in favor of Albanian being a Paleo-Balkan language different from Illyrian, he uses as an argument that /sk/ could not have developed in Albanian as /shk/ therefore toponyms like Shkodra, Shkumbin and others can only have been adopted into Albanian which according to him only evolved /sk/ as /h/. Hence, if the toponym recorded as Scodra was part of the lexicon of Proto-Albanians it would have evolved into something like *Hadër according to him. ( La fonologia storica di Shkodër esclude così l'ipotesi di una formazione dell'ethnos albanese dall'illirico e lo sviluppo dell'illirico nell'albanese come lo assume la teoria dell'autoctonia, perché nel quadro di questa teoria la forma albanese dell'antico nome Scodra dovrebbe mostrare sviluppi fonologici più vecchi, cioè gli sviluppi delle parole ereditate: *sk > albanese h e *ó > albanese a (vedi sopra 2.1) ) Therefore, he concludes that Albanian was not spoken near coastal Illyria, but in the Dardanian hinterland up to the area near the present-day Serbia-Bulgaria border.

    As you can understand for yourself, this is a contradiction because his argument about Beskidy (hence in favor of an unattested other Paleo-Balkan branch) presupposes an evolution /sk/ to /shk/ while his argument against it being Illyrian presupposes that /sk/ didn't evolve as /shk/. And the area in which he places Albanian presupposes that toponyms which contain /sk/ developed eventually as /shk/ (Scardus>Sharr, Scupi>Shkupi).

    So what's going on here? In the original argument of Çabej et al., this is not problem because Albanian developed /sk/ in different ways in different circumstances. Demiraj (2006), The origin of the Albanians linguistically investigated writes: The place-name Shkodër - Shkodr-a, as compared to the anciently evidenced form Scodra, has also developed in harmony with the evolution of the phonetic system of Albanian (..) It has been acknowledged that the consonantal cluster */sk-/ has evolved to /h/ only in IE inherited words, that is in words pertaining to a very ancient prehistorical period. But this consonantal cluster of relatively later periods including that of contacts with Old Greek and Latin has regularly yielded /shk/ in Albanian (..) (read pages 138-140)

    The oronym Sharr evolved from the form attested as Scardus which comes from PIE *(s)kerH- which as *skardā also produced hardhje (as in Matzinger's hypothesis about Shkodra). In addition, Proto-Albanian *skera produced shqerr and shkierr and Scodra and Scupi became Shkodra and Shkupi in a very "linear" development model. These developmentS could not have happened in any other language and later adopted into Albanian. Toponyms like Scardus exist in many regions in the western Balkans but all as they came into contact with Slavic languages, they underwent metathesis. Hence: Skradnik (Sandzak, Serbia), Skradno (Bosnia), Skradin (Croatia)

    The fact that Albanian developed /sk/ in different ways to me shows that as a living language, it developed new dialectal innovations in particular regions.
    That is a fair argument but built on a misunderstanding.

    The -sk- in beskid is not argued to be from indo european *sk but rather the reflex of a suffix like -stico (example -stico > stko > sko). So this argument about shkodra doesnt apply.

  7. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    That is a fair argument but built on a misunderstanding.

    The -sk- in beskid is not argued to be from indo european *sk but rather the reflex of a suffix like -stico (example -stico > stko > sko). So this argument about shkodra doesnt apply.
    If it was originally a suffix which was compounded with another morpheme doesn't affect its development at the stage we are discussing because in both proposed etymologies, Beskidy evolved from an oronym which included /sk/ and also gave rise to bjeshkë. They don't include any /st/ in the form from which developed Beskidy and bjeshkë. In Çabej's case it's not even clear if he considers -ska as the result of a suffix (which couldn't have evolved as -stico>stko), while in Orel's case I think that it's obvious that his *bheug-iska is linked to PIE -iskos. Other than that, no matter the position of /sk/ in addition to other forms it also displays a linear development in Albanian vocabulary which is not inherited from Latin as in eshk < Proto-Albanian *aiska or *etska. In general, I think that the even bigger contradiction is the place-name Scardus>Sharr which is within the region he defines as Proto-Albanian but displays a development which should be impossible if the place-name recorded as Scodra couldn't develop to Shkodra.

    As we've discussed, however, in reality contradiction only exists if we assume that Proto-Albanian was the same uniform language everywhere with no (proto-)dialects. Such a language exists nowhere, let alone in mountainous regions (see language diversification in the Caucasus or how ancient Greek developed dialects in relatively small regions) I think that many theories often forget that the history of the Albanian language is mostly one of contraction, not of expansion. As such, they assume that Geg and Tosk dialects represent the only two macrodialects which emerged from Albanian which until that point was 100% uniform. This isn't true. Geg and Tosk are just the variants which emerged from what remained of Albanian.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 03-08-2021 at 06:54 PM.

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  9. #1196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    That is a fair argument but built on a misunderstanding.

    The -sk- in beskid is not argued to be from indo european *sk but rather the reflex of a suffix like -stico (example -stico > stko > sko). So this argument about shkodra doesnt apply.
    The Illyrian name Sceno-barbus is etymologised as "Grey-beard" and does not match proto-Albanian. Albanian cognate of Sceno- is Gege. Hini (grey), and the word for beard is "mjekër", so the proto-Albanian equivalent of Illyrian. Scenobarbus should be something like Mekrakhini (mjekërhini)

  10. #1197
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    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    5800-5400 calBCE




    4545-4260 calBCE




    3328-3015 calBCE


    I don't know what you are trying to say here ......................when you also state middle bronze age samples, such as

    Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018
    28 February 2018 in L283 / M241 / Phylogeny / SNPs tagged ancient DNA / balkans / CTS3617 / J2b2 / J2b2a / J2b2a1 / L283 / M241 / Y15058 by Flor Veseli

    I4331 position under J2b2a-L283

    New DNA paper from Mathieson et al. 2018, The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, gave us ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surroundings. Supplementary information from the paper states one of the sites analyzed was the Veliki Vanik burial mound, which is located near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia. Individual I4331,dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), was 5-7 year old subadult male with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283



    we don't even know if there are more of this haplogroup that stayed, arrived or moved on because this 7 yo did not have any children
    Last edited by vettor; 03-08-2021 at 08:01 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  11. #1198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Yet one J-L283 "proto-Illyrian" and zero I-Y3120 "proto-Slavic" Y-DNA finds can...
    Exactly, i agree 100% with you here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The Illyrian name Sceno-barbus is etymologised as "Grey-beard" and does not match proto-Albanian. Albanian cognate of Sceno- is Gege. Hini (grey), and the word for beard is "mjekër", so the proto-Albanian equivalent of Illyrian. Scenobarbus should be something like Mekrakhini (mjekërhini)
    Barba meant beard in Latin.
    'Barba' means beard, while 'bărbat' means a man in Romanian.

    Could Illyrian language have been closely related to Latin? I mean, it won't be strange since Latin was spoken just across the sea. But if that's the case then it probably means that both Latin and Illyrian descend from the same Indo-European group, an Urnfield related group of people.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Barba meant beard in Latin.
    'Barba' means beard, while 'bărbat' means a man in Romanian.

    Could Illyrian language have been closely related to Latin? I mean, it won't be strange since Latin was spoken just across the sea. But if that's the case then it probably means that both Latin and Illyrian descend from the same Indo-European group, an Urnfield related group of people.
    I think a lot depends on the definition of what Illyrian actually is, because there are obviously narrow and wider definition. Like what's with the Pannonian tribes and with Eastern Hallstatt? Do you consider those being Illyrian or not. If so, the connection to Italics might be even more obvious, if not, much less so I'd say.

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