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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #1261
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    Very interesting posts. Until 800 BC, most of what later became Macedonia was inhabited by Thracians, Paeonians and Illyrians. When the Greeks (protoMacedonians) expanded from their homeland around Mt Olympus, they absorbed most of these peoples. But until a few centuries later, there were many Illyrian and Thracian names still surviving in the Macedonian population.

    I am not really sure why Protomacedonians are mentioned as a distinct group in the above maps. Their language was clearly an early dialect of Greek. That they may have later diverged genetically from the other Greeks due to mixtures with Illyrians and Thracians is another story.
    distance: 1.656775
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.8
    Early Slavic: 24.5
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 12.7
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 10.2
    IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.7
    MAR_Taforalt: 0.8
    CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA: 0.7
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  3. #1262
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    I see that indirectly I've been mentioned here because I make distinction between ancient Macedonian, Phrygian/Brygian and Greek. My believe is these were related languages that formed a single Indo-European branch among the rest of the Indo-European languages. However the little evidence shows they were enough distinct to be a separate languages, still highly related tho...

    To cite some sources:

    Brian D. Joseph:
    Family: Ancient Greek is generally taken to be the only representative (though note the existence of different dialects) of the Greek or Hellenic branch of Indo-European. There is some dispute as to whether Ancient Macedonian (the native language of Philip and Alexander), if it has any special affinity to Greek at all, is a dialect within Greek (see below) or a sibling language to all of the known Ancient Greek dialects. If the latter view is correct, then Macedonian and Greek would be the two subbranches of a group within Indo-European which could more properly be called Hellenic.

    Related Languages: As noted above, Ancient Macedonian might be the language most closely related to Greek, perhaps even a dialect of Greek. The slender evidence is open to different interpretations, so that no definitive answer is really possible but most likely, Ancient Macedonian was not simply an Ancient Greek dialect on a par with Attic or Aeolic (see below).
    Vladimir Georgiev:
    V. The Macedonian Region

    The original region of the ancient Macedonians was the basin of the river Haliakmon. The oldest toponyms here are very similar to the Greek ones. Numerous isoglosses connect the Macedonian language with different Greek dialects. This fact attests the genetic identity of Macedonian and Greek.

    However, there is an essential difference between Macedonian and all other Greek dialects. This is the change of IE ma into ta in Greek which was completed before the epoch of the Mycenaean documents. In Macedonian IE ma changed into m. This difference which separates Macedonian from all other Greek dialects is therefore very old. There are also other differences.

    In the present writer's opinion, ancient Macedonian is closely related to Greek, and Macedonian and Greek are descended from a common Greek-Macedonian idiom that was spoken till about the second half of the third millennium b.c.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    most times ...if you remove "smooth path " in SNP tracker, you get a better result
    Is it a sensation or a sensation? Can I call myself Phrygian?

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    Last edited by armalite; 03-12-2021 at 03:05 PM.

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  9. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I see that indirectly I've been mentioned here because I make distinction between ancient Macedonian, Phrygian/Brygian and Greek. My believe is these were related languages that formed a single Indo-European branch among the rest of the Indo-European languages. However the little evidence shows they were enough distinct to be a separate languages, still highly related tho...

    To cite some sources:

    Brian D. Joseph:


    Vladimir Georgiev:
    Most ancient authors and modern classic scholars agree that the proto-Macedonians were a Doric tribe known as Makednoi, who originated from the mountains of Pindus in Epirus. Surprise, surprise, the earliest Doric dialects came from exactly the same region (also according to Georgiev's theory). Due to conflicts with Greek and Illyrian tribes, the proto-Macedonians migrated to Pieria around 900BC if I am not mistaken. This was even part of the own mythology of the Macedonians, as even centuries after their expansion to Macedonia, they would still gather and hold pan-Macedonian festivals in Pieria and Dion to honour their fatherland (summarised on Nicholas Hammond's work on Macedonia). The proto-Macedonians practiced transhumance, and their way of life was very similar to the Vlach people of today's Balkans.

    The proto-Macedonians were always part of the Mycenaean influence, unlike their Phrygian neighbours (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net...icle&id_art=11).

    That Macedonian has some Phrygian and Illyrian loanwords clearly is a result of later contacts with these cultures.

    Yes, Phrygian and the Greek languages are likely to be related, but Macedonian is clearly part of the strictly Greek dialectal/language continuum.

    I don't want to derail the thread. I do not care whether Macedonians were Greek, Illyrian or anything else. I care about being precise. During their early history, they mixed with non-Greeks, and during the Hellenistic times, they mixed with Anatolians and Levantines, like everybody else in the Greek world. Furthermore, I suspect that only the most microscopic fragments of Macedonian ancestry may survive in modern populations, if at all. But I feel that labelling proto-Macedonians as a distinct entity from other Greeks is somewhat imprecise at best, or feeds into certain nationalist narratives at worst.

    By the way, this is in no way a reference to you. Its just that based on what I've read, it is rather imprecise to refer to proto-Macedonians as a distinct linguistic entity and culture, in the way we refer to other groups such as Phrygians and Thracians. I would write the same if someone (like many Greeks, but not here in AG) labelled ancient Thracians as ancient Greeks (which our schoolbooks do).
    Last edited by XXD; 03-12-2021 at 04:19 PM.
    distance: 1.656775
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.8
    Early Slavic: 24.5
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 12.7
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 10.2
    IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2: 1.7
    MAR_Taforalt: 0.8
    CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA: 0.7
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  11. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Actually according to that image posted initially by Rob, Brnjica-type pottery doesn't corelate with the Brygians but with the Paeonians.
    It is not incorrect to say that it is not far from where the Brygians had their capital supposedly (between edessa and beroea). Marked out:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Actually according to that image posted initially by Rob, Brnjica-type pottery doesn't corelate with the Brygians but with the Paeonians. We see this type of pottery shows up mainly east of Morava river where the supposed Dardanians were located and east of Vardar river and along Struma. The region of Greek Macedonia where this pottery appears was inhabited by Paeonian and Thracian tribes, that is east of Vardar in the Thessalonikian plain.

    Besides, Mt.Vermio where the Brygians had their capital is far from the region where Brnjica-type pottery was found.

    What is interesting, this Brnjica-type pottery correlates quite nicely with the Daco-Thracian elements in the map that represents Vladimir Georgiev's finds about the toponymy in the region:


    So again, if this Brnjica-type pottery represents anything, it must be the Thracian and Paeonian tribes in the region, not the Brygians who certainly were closely related to the ancient Macedonians and Greeks linguistically. Besides, someone did mention in this thread that the Paeonians were related to the Dardanians. I haven't read much on that matter but this Brnjica-type pottery could indicate such a connection.
    As for this map, it is based on georgiev's positions, correct? Do you know which period specifically, it has "pelasgian" there on it and proto-greek in Epirus, so before greeks were even in the mainland, middle bronze age or earlier?

    Georgiev's position is obviously of value, but maybe mistaken in many places as a lot is from the 50-70s, so I don't think it can be used as a conclusive argument.

    Especially given how totally far away Albanian was known by linguists in that period compared to the last 20 years.

    Especially on the Brygian/Phrygian question, given the relative dearth of material, everything is very speculative. Also that it is very one sided and based mostly on Phrygian inscriptions that come from at least ~500 years after a split from the proposed common Brygo-Phryo group:




    Maybe we could imagine a parallel case where if we only had inscriptions from English over a 1000 year period, starting from 500 years after it had split from the common Anglo-Frisian group, and were using those to speculate about Frisian. We may fall for many traps given the intense contacts English had with Romance. Likewise with a still limited Phrygian corpus, that had intense contacts with Hittite, Luwian, and Greek, I think we have to be a bit wary about extrapolating directly to Brygian.


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  15. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post

    So again, if this Brnjica-type pottery represents anything, it must be the Thracian and Paeonian tribes in the region, not the Brygians who certainly were closely related to the ancient Macedonians and Greeks linguistically. Besides, someone did mention in this thread that the Paeonians were related to the Dardanians. I haven't read much on that matter but this Brnjica-type pottery could indicate such a connection.
    And there is the opinion of Vanja Stanisic, who argued for a possible Brygo-Dardano-Mysian group that was linguistically neither Illyrian nor Thracian, with Moesians being fully Thracianised, later, as well as Dardanians falling under the Illyrian label.

    But since Joachim Matzinger's work on Albanian has got him to desginate Albanian as neither Illyrian nor Thracian, this got me to think maybe there is something in this theory to be explored. Maybe Dardanians had an Illyrian adstrate without being linguistically fully Illyrianised (bilingual, still speaking dardanian at home)? Likewise maybe there were Brygians in Albania and Pelagonia that are mentioned well in to the time of the Roman empire that also could have survived linguistically.

    It is still very speculative terrain.

    Last edited by Johane Derite; 03-12-2021 at 05:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's a bit disrespectful, it's still ok to wonder.
    Sorry if you feel that way but as an observer that’s what I sbeen seeing for the last few years. I never said it’s not ok to wonder. But people get pretty nasty around this topic, and it would be nice to get some concrete facts in place so the discussion can move along. I don’t think that’s disrespectful at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    It is still very speculative terrain.
    Whichever camp you feel is more likely, I think it all converges on the era of trojan war, and the Phrygians, Dardanians, and Mysians that connect Balkans and Troy have to have a central focus given they are among the earliest documented peoples of the balkans.

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