E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

[Bane]

Are there any estimations which clade E-Z5108 or E-Z5107 is more frequent in regions like Peloponnesus or Western Greece?

[Aspar]

I will take this 'analyzes' with a grain of salt by the way.

This Aspurg guy relies too much on STR's which are very unpredictable generally for V13, and I can see in this 'analyzes' some predicted branches on a 7/37 difference. Almost certainly looks there a lot of mistakes in here.
Then again it looks like he is mixing a medieval and modern nations such as Vlachs and Albanians with ancient Greeks.
Ok, you can overlook the Albanian-ancient Greek mixing but when it comes to the Vlachs it's a little bit difficult because Vlachs are nothing but a Roman-Balkan mixture therefore whether their Balkan is Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, ancient Greek or even Celtic is a little bit harder to say.
Then out of thin air he puts etiquette for a certain marker as a 'Vlach' or other.
For example:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z169 88>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.
Do you really believe this is an analysis worth of discussion even? It's so superficial and without any arguments whatsoever. How close they cluster?? I mean what if this actual branch came to South Albania with the Serbs and their southern expansion in the 14th century? How many actual people with Aromanian ancestry are actually confirmed of this branch?

Or how about this one:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.
Again a baseless prediction without any argumentation. Just by looking at YFULL tree, it's observable that the TMRCA of the Pontic Greeks with someone else from unknown place is 500 b.c. while the upstream matches are mostly Central European with TMRCA 900 b.c. A Visigoth from Spain was said to be positive on this branch however after close look in his BAM file it seems this is wrong prediction because the sample in question is ancestral for at least two SNP's on CTS1273 level. Anyway very late for any ancient Greeks this branch is and I can make a prediction as well that this branch among the Pontic Greeks arrived with the expansion of the La Tene Celts in Anatolia. It looks way more certainly than an ancient Greek origin with all due respect.

Then again this Aspurg guy seems to prefer rather than realistically observe origins something that he personally wrote on another forum.
He seems to have a fetish for Turkics by the way, giving his seemingly Balkan branch under CTS9320 a Turkic origin

[Johane Derite]

I will take this 'analyzes' with a grain of salt by the way.

This Aspurg guy relies too much on STR's which are very unpredictable generally for V13, and I can see in this 'analyzes' some predicted branches on a 7/37 difference. Almost certainly looks there a lot of mistakes in here.
Then again it looks like he is mixing a medieval and modern nations such as Vlachs and Albanians with ancient Greeks.
Ok, you can overlook the Albanian-ancient Greek mixing but when it comes to the Vlachs it's a little bit difficult because Vlachs are nothing but a Roman-Balkan mixture therefore whether their Balkan is Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, ancient Greek or even Celtic is a little bit harder to say.
Then out of thin air he puts etiquette for a certain marker as a 'Vlach' or other.
For example:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z169 88>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.
Do you really believe this is an analysis worth of discussion even? It's so superficial and without any arguments whatsoever. How close they cluster?? I mean what if this actual branch came to South Albania with the Serbs and their southern expansion in the 14th century? How many actual people with Aromanian ancestry are actually confirmed of this branch?

Or how about this one:
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.
Again a baseless prediction without any argumentation. Just by looking at YFULL tree, it's observable that the TMRCA of the Pontic Greeks with someone else from unknown place is 500 b.c. while the upstream matches are mostly Central European with TMRCA 900 b.c. A Visigoth from Spain was said to be positive on this branch however after close look in his BAM file it seems this is wrong prediction because the sample in question is ancestral for at least two SNP's on CTS1273 level. Anyway very late for any ancient Greeks this branch is and I can make a prediction as well that this branch among the Pontic Greeks arrived with the expansion of the La Tene Celts in Anatolia. It looks way more certainly than an ancient Greek origin with all due respect.

Then again this Aspurg guy seems to prefer rather than realistically observe origins something that he personally wrote on another forum.
He seems to have a fetish for Turkics by the way, giving his seemingly Balkan branch under CTS9320 a Turkic origin

I wasn't yet familiar with his tendencies, so I took his analysis in good faith. I agree his analysis needs to be taken with a grain of salt

[Hawk]

What do u guys think of E-V13 S2979?

[Bane]

I will take this 'analyzes' with a grain of salt by the way.

It is possible the analysis of Aspurg is not precise, but there are other arguments which would imply that a significant majority of E-V13 did arrive to Greece with Dorians. At least that is my opinion.
One of those is that even today the regions in Greece where E-V13 prevails seem to correspond to so called "Western Greek dialects".

[Aspar]

It is possible the analysis of Aspurg is not precise, but there are other arguments which would imply that a significant majority of E-V13 did arrive to Greece with Dorians. At least that is my opinion.
One of those is that even today the regions in Greece where E-V13 prevails seem to correspond to so called "Western Greek dialects".

The problem is we don't know much about these so called Dorians. What we know is that when they appeared on the scene after the BA collapse, they were Greek speakers essentially. And, the Greek was attested in Greece earlier than the post BA collapse period, that is during the so called Mycenaean Greece widely known by the Linear B script which decipherment led to the discovery that Greek was already spoken in Greece in the 16th century B.C.

Therefore, it's very probable that these Dorians didn't arrive from way northern place in Southern Greece than the Prespa lakes so to say, and as such they were probably pushed further south by the proto-Illyrians who in their turn might have been pushed by other groups coming from the Urnfield core area. So these migrations and invasions could just have been a domino effect caused by Urnfield groups and not a single point migration and invasion from let's say Central Europe or the Carpathian basin to Southern Greece.
I am open to the possibility that these North-Western Greek groups and even other Greeks might have harbored some V13+ lineages but they were probably far from being the most dominant and numerous ones. If so, the North-Western Greek groups might have been unique in a way that they could have had some V13+ related ancestry from the Vucedol and later the Glasinac culture but also proto-Greek V13+ related ancestry from Sintashta and Catacomb subsequently. So some lineages such as E-Y37092 could have been the result of this Vucedol influence among the Greeks.

I am saying all this because I believe that the proto-Greek speakers came to Greece somewhere around 2000 B.C-1600 B.C from a North-Eastern route, from the Catacomb culture which shows many cultural elements with the Mycenaean Greeks and which probably was the result of the mixing between back migrating Corded Ware groups such as Sintashta and already present Yamnaya groups such as Poltavka and probably the shared Sintashta ancestry could explain the close links between the Indo-Iranian and the Greek language.

During that period, a daughter subclade of V13 Z1057, would have been only a thousand years old and it's granddaughter branch BY3880, under which the vast majority of V13+ people in Greece and the rest of the world are located, would have been old less than a thousand years. While CTS9320 which is the most dominant branch in Greeks wouldn't have been born yet. I believe that some of these V13+ branches were part of the proto-Greeks during their migration from the Catacomb culture to Greece through the territory of modern Bulgaria and others weren't and could have been located somewhere in Central Europe and the Carpathian basin already Indo-Europenized, possibly by a Corded Ware or Bell Beaker group for which evidence are probably some rare and old branches parallel to Z1057 such as E-BY6550 found in Northern and Western Europeans and not present in the Balkans. That these early branches were located at a place close to the Carpathian basin evidence could be the current distribution of E-Y30977 and it's daughter subclades E-Y30976 and E-Y37092 that show great diversity in the Western Balkans(Vucedol?) but also Central and Northern Europe(possible Celtic connection?) and the Carpathian basin would have acted as a cross road for these lineages, one followed Danube up to Central Europe and the other down to the Balkans. Some E-CTS1273 lineages might have kept with other Corded Ware groups such as Sintashta in their eastern migration and invasion of the Yamnaya territory and possibly caused the disintegration of the Yamnaya and the formation of the Catacomb culture from where the proto-Greeks later will migrate to Greece. This can be further supported by some similar cultural elements between Sintashta and Catacomb. That CTS1273 in it's early stages was probably a part of the Sintashta group an evidence might be that there are some unique CTS1273* clusters among Ossetians, Kurds and Iranians but also in other groups in the Middle East.While other CTS1273 migrated or stayed behind in the Carpathian Basin from where they flooded Greece later on but came down to Greece as non-Greek speakers.

So to summarize it, E-V13 and some of it's older subclades might have been present in the proto-Greeks. Some other lineages were probably the result of an influence from some early contacts between the Glasinac culture and the Greek world and these contacts would have been more frequent in some Northern Greek groups such as the Dorians. Other young lineages such as E-CTS9320 which is the most numerous branch among the Greeks today and others who share TMRCA with other Europeans not older than the post-BA collapse, could not have been a Dorian addition and probably are the result of the Greek expansion to the north, both cultural and militaristic and the subsequent hellenization of various other groups but also the result of the many invasions of Greece from other northern people such as Illyrians, Dardanians, Scythians and Celts of the La Tene culture. With the Roman rule of Greece, everything seems to have changed. The Romans were notorious for enslaving a lot of people and resettling people to different parts of the empire. We can see a big change of the dna profile of the ancient people of the Balkans including the Greeks. We can observe a big shift towards the Levant from thereafter and later on many slaves, soldiers and other migrants from the Empire and especially from the non-Greek part of the Balkans were resettled in different parts of the Empire and Greece for different purposes, administration, guarding the roads etc. It seems that all other identities than the Roman one were dismissed especially after the Christian religion became dominant in the Empire and identifying as a Hellene was considered a Paganism. Whether someone was a Latin or a Greek speaking Roman wasn't of great importance after the spread of the Christianity so different people came to form a unique Eastern Roman identity united under the umbrella of the Christian religion out of which the modern Greek nation was born. Later on, some other V13+ lineages probably flooded Greece with the migration and the raids of the Goths and the Getae. I am also pretty sure some others came with the Slavs later on as well. The Slavs were known to extensively assimilate captured and enslaved people and soldiers. We have accounts how they treated the captured people with goodness and giving them option later on to either stay with them and assimilate in the Slavic people or return back home. Hell, some were even a 20th century addition. No provocation meant, I was just saying that assimilation is an ever going process...

[digital_noise]

I know a lot of the foundation for "where did E-V13 come from" is still up in the air, but I came across something that might be of interest. I am E-Y30972-BY14160. My paternal side came from Cimina in Italy, which according to the Italian Wikipedia was formed by "Greeks and Albanians" fleeing Constantinople in the mid 1400's or whatever year the fall of Constantinople was. I know this is more recent on the E-V13 timeline, and I cannot verify my ancestry back that far, but i do know that my line was in that same town at least sine 1700, likely earlier. So this might be of interest as it puts a specific group of people and a specific location in the spotlight. Now, obviously this is not very verifiable but I found it interesting

[vettor]

The problem is we don't know much about these so called Dorians. What we know is that when they appeared on the scene after the BA collapse, they were Greek speakers essentially. And, the Greek was attested in Greece earlier than the post BA collapse period, that is during the so called Mycenaean Greece widely known by the Linear B script which decipherment led to the discovery that Greek was already spoken in Greece in the 16th century B.C.

Therefore, it's very probable that these Dorians didn't arrive from way northern place in Southern Greece than the Prespa lakes so to say, and as such they were probably pushed further south by the proto-Illyrians who in their turn might have been pushed by other groups coming from the Urnfield core area. So these migrations and invasions could just have been a domino effect caused by Urnfield groups and not a single point migration and invasion from let's say Central Europe or the Carpathian basin to Southern Greece.
I am open to the possibility that these North-Western Greek groups and even other Greeks might have harbored some V13+ lineages but they were probably far from being the most dominant and numerous ones. If so, the North-Western Greek groups might have been unique in a way that they could have had some V13+ related ancestry from the Vucedol and later the Glasinac culture but also proto-Greek V13+ related ancestry from Sintashta and Catacomb subsequently. So some lineages such as E-Y37092 could have been the result of this Vucedol influence among the Greeks.

I am saying all this because I believe that the proto-Greek speakers came to Greece somewhere around 2000 B.C-1600 B.C from a North-Eastern route, from the Catacomb culture which shows many cultural elements with the Mycenaean Greeks and which probably was the result of the mixing between back migrating Corded Ware groups such as Sintashta and already present Yamnaya groups such as Poltavka and probably the shared Sintashta ancestry could explain the close links between the Indo-Iranian and the Greek language.

During that period, a daughter subclade of V13 Z1057, would have been only a thousand years old and it's granddaughter branch BY3880, under which the vast majority of V13+ people in Greece and the rest of the world are located, would have been old less than a thousand years. While CTS9320 which is the most dominant branch in Greeks wouldn't have been born yet. I believe that some of these V13+ branches were part of the proto-Greeks during their migration from the Catacomb culture to Greece through the territory of modern Bulgaria and others weren't and could have been located somewhere in Central Europe and the Carpathian basin already Indo-Europenized, possibly by a Corded Ware or Bell Beaker group for which evidence are probably some rare and old branches parallel to Z1057 such as E-BY6550 found in Northern and Western Europeans and not present in the Balkans. That these early branches were located at a place close to the Carpathian basin evidence could be the current distribution of E-Y30977 and it's daughter subclades E-Y30976 and E-Y37092 that show great diversity in the Western Balkans(Vucedol?) but also Central and Northern Europe(possible Celtic connection?) and the Carpathian basin would have acted as a cross road for these lineages, one followed Danube up to Central Europe and the other down to the Balkans. Some E-CTS1273 lineages might have kept with other Corded Ware groups such as Sintashta in their eastern migration and invasion of the Yamnaya territory and possibly caused the disintegration of the Yamnaya and the formation of the Catacomb culture from where the proto-Greeks later will migrate to Greece. This can be further supported by some similar cultural elements between Sintashta and Catacomb. That CTS1273 in it's early stages was probably a part of the Sintashta group an evidence might be that there are some unique CTS1273* clusters among Ossetians, Kurds and Iranians but also in other groups in the Middle East.While other CTS1273 migrated or stayed behind in the Carpathian Basin from where they flooded Greece later on but came down to Greece as non-Greek speakers.

So to summarize it, E-V13 and some of it's older subclades might have been present in the proto-Greeks. Some other lineages were probably the result of an influence from some early contacts between the Glasinac culture and the Greek world and these contacts would have been more frequent in some Northern Greek groups such as the Dorians. Other young lineages such as E-CTS9320 which is the most numerous branch among the Greeks today and others who share TMRCA with other Europeans not older than the post-BA collapse, could not have been a Dorian addition and probably are the result of the Greek expansion to the north, both cultural and militaristic and the subsequent hellenization of various other groups but also the result of the many invasions of Greece from other northern people such as Illyrians, Dardanians, Scythians and Celts of the La Tene culture. With the Roman rule of Greece, everything seems to have changed. The Romans were notorious for enslaving a lot of people and resettling people to different parts of the empire. We can see a big change of the dna profile of the ancient people of the Balkans including the Greeks. We can observe a big shift towards the Levant from thereafter and later on many slaves, soldiers and other migrants from the Empire and especially from the non-Greek part of the Balkans were resettled in different parts of the Empire and Greece for different purposes, administration, guarding the roads etc. It seems that all other identities than the Roman one were dismissed especially after the Christian religion became dominant in the Empire and identifying as a Hellene was considered a Paganism. Whether someone was a Latin or a Greek speaking Roman wasn't of great importance after the spread of the Christianity so different people came to form a unique Eastern Roman identity united under the umbrella of the Christian religion out of which the modern Greek nation was born. Later on, some other V13+ lineages probably flooded Greece with the migration and the raids of the Goths and the Getae. I am also pretty sure some others came with the Slavs later on as well. The Slavs were known to extensively assimilate captured and enslaved people and soldiers. We have accounts how they treated the captured people with goodness and giving them option later on to either stay with them and assimilate in the Slavic people or return back home. Hell, some were even a 20th century addition. No provocation meant, I was just saying that assimilation is an ever going process...

interesting

Roman Historian Appian stated that the only Pelasgians are Epirotes...and they ( Epirotes ) are neither Greek nor Illyrian

https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L003.pdf

Where did these Dorians come from ......they needed to be by the sea to get to the islands of Crete and Rhodes ................my guess is that they are Epirote or Proto-Epirote

[Johane Derite]

interesting

Roman Historian Appian stated that the only Pelasgians are Epirotes...and they ( Epirotes ) are neither Greek nor Illyrian

https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L003.pdf

Which page, i'm not finding where he said that

[Greekscholar]

We can see a big change of the dna profile of the ancient people of the Balkans including the Greeks. We can observe a big shift towards the Levant from thereafter and later on many slaves, soldiers and other migrants from the Empire

Thanks for the post. I am interested in the bolded. Do you have any specific samples in mind that show this change? I would agree that by Roman Imperial times we start finding modern looking Greek Aegean island profiles, but I am not sure any samples of similar genetics have been found on the mainland from this era.

Modern mainland Greeks have less Eastern genetic input that Empuries_2

Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
Distance: 2.7372% / 0.02737175
74.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.8 GEO_CHG
2.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.3201% / 0.02320123
57.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.0 Levant_Natufian
1.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.5255% / 0.02525525
56.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
34.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Levant_Natufian
0.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9206% / 0.01920593
59.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 GEO_CHG
2.4 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Baltic_LVA_HG