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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I don't know if anyone ever got proof re: which variety of E-M35 Hitler was, but I could be wrong. I've always assumed people just guessed it was E-V13.
    He was from Braunau am Inn.I am wondering how people from this area coming in terms of autosomal DNA.Most kits and samples i have seen from Austrians, are in some way Slavic admixed.Kinda ironic if you ask me.Being E-M35 and have also some Slavic DNA lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I don't know if anyone ever got proof re: which variety of E-M35 Hitler was, but I could be wrong. I've always assumed people just guessed it was E-V13.
    Statistically speaking it makes sense he was E-V13, unless he was of paternal Jewish descend or some rare E-M123 clade as Napoleon. But, he was likely E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I guess, like I said before, when they migrated as part of larger pack and later as specialists into the West, they were not that much different from other lineages. There was no exclusively E-V13 replacement or elite. However, when some tribes moved into the Balkans, it seems to have been different and in some regions the V13 clans must have been quite numerous and leading in the newly formed population. Its like it is R1b in many places after the steppe expansion, but its dominance in Iberia, where the steppe people not even contributed disproportionally autosomally or culturally, what making it even crazier. But it was a large scale founder effect. I assume the same for Balkan V13 in the LBA-EIA transition.
    Exactly, and I think that is what makes it difficult to pin down. The Bell Beaker - R1b connection was supported by many people since it seemed to fit so well. A culture showing up all over Europe with clear steppe influences seemed tailor made for a group expected to be from the Steppe. But for the early V13 there is not such a clear cut example. Or maybe there is and it's just obscured by the mind-boggling complexity of archeological cultures in the Balkans. Cetina was probably not the starting point, even if it's possible it had V13. If it's more northern something like Vucedol could fit, but the two samples tested from Vucedol were not V13.
    I'll throw in a crazy suggestion: maybe oldest V13 was involved in Western Yamnaya. It could bring PH1246 to the tumuli in Montenegro, and leave some branches in Bulgaria Romania and others to Serbia/Hungary, and from Northern Hungary get dragged along with BB movements to Western-Europe. But while Western Yamnaya has not been tested, the expected haplogroup Z2103 was found in neighbouring Vucedol and in contact with BB, so again no V13. Like I said, crazy.

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  5. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    How frenquet EV13 is in Austria btw?
    From what I read so far between 8-12 percent for the whole country, but with significant regional differences. Austria is genetically not that homogeneous. The small Austrian genetic project brought up various E-V13 samples, which is kind of significant, considering how few males were tested. But like with all small samples, this might not be representative.

    Some pages suggesting Hitler was EV13.
    The descendants of a relative were tested and they were E-M35. Chances he was E-V13 are 10 : 1 I guess, if that result is valid. But 10 : 1 or even a higher ratio is no certainty. Like his chances of being E-V13 in the first place was 1 : 10, so odds are no certainties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    He was from Braunau am Inn.I am wondering how people from this area coming in terms of autosomal DNA.Most kits and samples i have seen from Austrians, are in some way Slavic admixed.Kinda ironic if you ask me.Being E-M35 and have also some Slavic DNA lol.
    He was born there, but his ancestry was from Lower Austria for the most part. He wasn't particularly fond of his ancestry from simple farmers in the Waldviertel. Under his rule most of his ancestral villages were evacuated for giving space to a military training ground. The houses were not destroyed because of him, but still. The training ground is still active, its Truppenübungsplatz Allentsteig. Its known among Austrian soldiers for being one of the coldest and harshest training places in Eastern Austria.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppe...tz_Allentsteig

    The Waldviertel has a poor soil overall, the climate is colder and many settlements from Medieval times were left soon afterwards, became deserted. To this day its probably the poorest part of Lower Austria. Beautiful landscape, but a weak economy and agriculture.

    Turning back to genetics, the region of the Waldviertel is not very Slavic in the Austrian comparison, though certainly more so than the regions West of the Enns or the very Western parts of Salzburg and Upper Austria in particular, which are core Bavarian areas. The most closely related Slavic people, from which admixture could have come, would have been Southern Czechs, and these are themselves not very Slavic. So chances are he and his family was much less Slavic than most Germans East of the Elbe and fairly Bavarian overall. But in many Lower Austrian regions, there are differences down to the marriage group and villages, because some had more Slavic ancestry, others were settled with newly incoming people from Bavaria and Franks. It really depends and you can't tell without having people tested.

    The situation is somewhat different in the countries of Burgenland, Styria and Carinthia. Especially Carinthia is more Slavic and Italian-Balkan admixed. If you get 10 Upper Austrians or 10 Tyrolean or 10 Vorarlberger or 10 Carinthians, you will get very different genetic profiles for each group in such a small country.

    You can compare the numbers with those from the Czech Republic where the average is about 6-7 percent for E1b:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    For Austria we have these numbers:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Lower Austria is not included, but I guess it will range in the higher numbers, more than Upper Austria, from what I saw. But I don't really know. In any case E-V13 is very diverse in the core Austrian zone, that's for sure.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-23-2020 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Statistically speaking it makes sense he was E-V13, unless he was of paternal Jewish descend or some rare E-M123 clade as Napoleon. But, he was likely E-V13.
    More likely than anything else, sure. But every variety of E-M35's been found in Europe; I don't think it's an open-and-shut case.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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  9. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    From what I read so far between 8-12 percent for the whole country, but with significant regional differences. Austria is genetically not that homogeneous. The small Austrian genetic project brought up various E-V13 samples, which is kind of significant, considering how few males were tested. But like with all small samples, this might not be representative.



    The descendants of a relative were tested and they were E-M35. Chances he was E-V13 are 10 : 1 I guess, if that result is valid. But 10 : 1 or even a higher ratio is no certainty. Like his chances of being E-V13 in the first place was 1 : 10, so odds are no certainties.



    He was born there, but his ancestry was from Lower Austria for the most part. He wasn't particularly fond of his ancestry from simple farmers in the Waldviertel. Under his rule most of his ancestral villages were evacuated for giving space to a military training ground. The houses were not destroyed because of him, but still. The training ground is still active, its Truppenübungsplatz Allentsteig. Its known among Austrian soldiers for being one of the coldest and harshest training places in Eastern Austria.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppe...tz_Allentsteig

    The Waldviertel has a poor soil overall, the climate is colder and many settlements from Medieval times were left soon afterwards, became deserted. To this day its probably the poorest part of Lower Austria. Beautiful landscape, but a weak economy and agriculture.

    Turning back to genetics, the region of the Waldviertel is not very Slavic in the Austrian comparison, though certainly more so than the regions West of the Enns or the very Western parts of Salzburg and Upper Austria in particular, which are core Bavarian areas. The most closely related Slavic people, from which admixture could have come, would have been Southern Czechs, and these are themselves not very Slavic. So chances are he and his family was much less Slavic than most Germans East of the Elbe and fairly Bavarian overall. But in many Lower Austrian regions, there are differences down to the marriage group and villages, because some had more Slavic ancestry, others were settled with newly incoming people from Bavaria and Franks. It really depends and you can't tell without having people tested.

    The situation is somewhat different in the countries of Burgenland, Styria and Carinthia. Especially Carinthia is more Slavic and Italian-Balkan admixed. If you get 10 Upper Austrians or 10 Tyrolean or 10 Vorarlberger or 10 Carinthians, you will get very different genetic profiles for each group in such a small country.

    You can compare the numbers with those from the Czech Republic where the average is about 6-7 percent for E1b:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    For Austria we have these numbers:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Lower Austria is not included, but I guess it will range in the higher numbers, more than Upper Austria, from what I saw. But I don't really know. In any case E-V13 is very diverse in the core Austrian zone, that's for sure.
    There are poors in Austria?Where the hell this world is going...

  10. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    There are poors in Austria?Where the hell this world is going...
    Well, poor is always relative.
    But a major problem for the people there is that the women are moving out. There is just a lack of modern opportunities, especially for women, out there. So generally speaking, large portions of the Waldviertel are dying out, people move to the cities or abroad, with the exception of some central or very favourable places and around larger companies on which whole communities depend, which is no good thing, on the long run, either. Both the birth rate and the migration balance is very negative for the region. It also never fully recovered from the fact that it was cut off from the the Bohemian-Moravian regions, which would have been its natural economic partner regions.

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    I have posited my opinion before that very early E-V13 clades came from South-Western Europe instead during Late-Neolithic/Chalcolithic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Well, poor is always relative.
    But a major problem for the people there is that the women are moving out. There is just a lack of modern opportunities, especially for women, out there. So generally speaking, large portions of the Waldviertel are dying out, people move to the cities or abroad, with the exception of some central or very favourable places and around larger companies on which whole communities depend, which is no good thing, on the long run, either. Both the birth rate and the migration balance is very negative for the region. It also never fully recovered from the fact that it was cut off from the the Bohemian-Moravian regions, which would have been its natural economic partner regions.
    I see.Austrians are good people in general.In Greece we have to do a lot with Austrians...as they picking us for tourism.Also familly oriented and more traditional than other Germanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I have posited my opinion before that very early E-V13 clades came from South-Western Europe instead during Late-Neolithic/Chalcolithic period.
    You know, we have E-V13 in Cardial-Impresso Ware, most likely in Vinca, in the Michelsberger, in Lengyel-Sopot - I think the latter is most likely, since they were exactly in place in the Carpathian region. But of course, we don't know for sure yet and since only a small number might have survived the steppe expansion originally, there are a lot of options for a small group doing better than others, somewhere.

    However, you have always to explain the extremely likely high frequency of E-V13 in the Daco-Thracians, with a decreasing but strong influence from there, through Pannonia, into Central Europe and into Greece. This is no problem with Urnfield and the Carpathian zone, which is ideal for such a spread. But if assuming it came from the West, you need not just to explain why E-V13 is now more common in the South than the North, but also why its more common in the East, than the West of its distribution zone. So that's kind of more complicated, especially since the time frame is rather limited and at least in the EBA, Pannonia was still largely free from E-V13 dominance. So it can't be earlier than MBA and no later than EIA with its typical distribution and a highly likely Thracian centre. This reduces options quite a lot I'd say.

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