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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #221
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    Finally, I find this work ingenious: http://groznijat.tripod.com/vg/vg.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I disagree with both Eastern Hallstatt and Cetina as areas from which E-V13 came to South Italy. Both of these potential sources are contradicted with lower E-V13 in Central Italy. See here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05...different.html

    I do think that most of E-V13 arrived to South Italy with ancient Greeks.
    I don't understand your reasoning behind it and why Central Italy would be a factor alone for LBA migrations from Eastern Hallstatt. Especially because archaeologically wise, there are certain North Balkan elements in the Villanovan culture. And it's naive to believe that there was no population replacement on the Italian peninsula that involved migrations from north to south Italy. Especially because the invasions most of the time were north-south direction as were in the Balkans as well. And in that context it's naive to think that the modern distribution of haplogroups in Italy is the same as it was in ancient times. Furthermore, the figures you posted show that C.Italy is 6.5%, S.Italy is 10.6% and Sicily 7.1% of e1b1b1a2. Now, I don't know what nomenclature they used because I think E-V13 is e1b1b1a1b, so probably some older one, which makes me think that these are percentages for the marker E-V68. As such, South Italy is not only E-V13 but also other E-V68 lineages which are mostly of MENA origin. And as such, the real figure of E-V13 in South Italy would be even lower. But then again, E-V13 is simply too old to prescribe it mostly to one single event such is the ancient Greek coastal colonization of Southern Italy. We have seen already how the Visigoths brought and carried some untypical lineages for Germanic people such as E-V13. Sure, it could have been picked up along the way but nevertheless, it ended up in Spain as a Visigoth. So there are many other ways lineages of E-V13
    to have arrived in South Italy and I don't see why the Greeks would have
    been the main factor when there is no any ancient Greek aDNA with E-V13 neither officially nor unofficially.

    Also there is this paper from 2015 which investigated the association of E-V13 as a marker of Greek colonization and came to some interesting conclusions:
    These findings suggest a poor association between the Y haplogroup E-V13 and the East-to-West GC migratory waves. The effects of more recent gene flow or sampling bias, may have masked the original E-V13 signal from Greece. At any rate, our results caution against the use of specific lineage-based approaches to test for hypothesised population contributions and underline the need for a more targeted approach to explain the occurrence of given haplotypes within a population, providing tests of alternative hypotheses, a wide spectrum of reference samples and mutation-limited inference methodology.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't understand your reasoning behind it and why Central Italy would be a factor alone for LBA migrations from Eastern Hallstatt. Especially because archaeologically wise, there are certain North Balkan elements in the Villanovan culture. And it's naive to believe that there was no population replacement on the Italian peninsula that involved migrations from north to south Italy. Especially because the invasions most of the time were north-south direction as were in the Balkans as well. And in that context it's naive to think that the modern distribution of haplogroups in Italy is the same as it was in ancient times. Furthermore, the figures you posted show that C.Italy is 6.5%, S.Italy is 10.6% and Sicily 7.1% of e1b1b1a2. Now, I don't know what nomenclature they used because I think E-V13 is e1b1b1a1b, so probably some older one, which makes me think that these are percentages for the marker E-V68. As such, South Italy is not only E-V13 but also other E-V68 lineages which are mostly of MENA origin. And as such, the real figure of E-V13 in South Italy would be even lower. But then again, E-V13 is simply too old to prescribe it mostly to one single event such is the ancient Greek coastal colonization of Southern Italy. We have seen already how the Visigoths brought and carried some untypical lineages for Germanic people such as E-V13. Sure, it could have been picked up along the way but nevertheless, it ended up in Spain as a Visigoth. So there are many other ways lineages of E-V13
    to have arrived in South Italy and I don't see why the Greeks would have
    been the main factor when there is no any ancient Greek aDNA with E-V13 neither officially nor unofficially.

    Also there is this paper from 2015 which investigated the association of E-V13 as a marker of Greek colonization and came to some interesting conclusions:
    Interesting in this context might be to evaluate where clearly more Greek derived lineages are standing in comparison to E-V13. Like do have Italian regions with mroe E-V13 also have more of the rather Greek and Balkan specific J2b and R1b clades or not? Because if it was Greek, even if assuming different tribes and cities had different frequencies, there should be some sort of correlation with other haplogroups on a regional level.
    Looking at that, I didn't do it in detail, but there seems to be some sort of "broken correlation", so rather a "can, but must not", making me believe that Greeks brought some E-V13 especially to South Italy, but the Greek colonisation as such only explains a fraction of it in Italy as a whole - and even in some Southern provinces. But probably someone did it in more detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Now, I don't know what nomenclature they used because I think E-V13 is e1b1b1a1b, so probably some older one, which makes me think that these are percentages for the marker E-V68. As such, South Italy is not only E-V13 but also other E-V68 lineages which are mostly of MENA origin.
    E-V13 is clearly labeled by the authors:



    One more thing, though my following remark is not directly related to your post. But generally...
    It is strange how modern distribution of younger clades in this case E-BY3880 can't be considered as an argument for discussing ancient migrations. And on the other side, very old clades like E-M78 can be an argument to claim that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia.
    Double standards...

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    There is a lot of sense in your summary. Its a tricky tricky one to interpret but I am not convinced the start of the Myceanean period represents the first arrival of Greeks speakers in Greece. I think too many of their baseline traits are seen centuries before that era and I strongly suspect they were an element (perhaps not the dominant one) in Greece for several centuries before the usual c. 1600BC date. I think Greek basically evolved in some area of Greece c. 1800BC or even before. Presumably from an offshoot of some sort of upstream Balkans branch off of late PIE. I think their linguistic traits that have been linked to contact with other groups further east and north might pre-date Greek as a distinct language and therefore date back to 2800-2500BC and be some sort of very ancient contact along the Dnieper root. I was actually think one of the traditional views of the origins of the Greeks is most likely: some overspill of Catacomb culture or a direct into the Lower Danube/east or north Balkans in SE of Europe as has been suggested for some of the burial styles in Kurgans in the area. Catacomb had contacts with Abashevo, Fatyanovo and Middle Dnieper etc presumably using the Dnieper as the main path of contacts between the zones in the middle third of the 3rd millennium BC. I am not aware of radiocarbon dates for suggested Catacomb kurgans west of the Black Sea/Lower Danube but I imagine most fall c. 2500-2200BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    E-V13 is clearly labeled by the authors:



    One more thing, though my following remark is not directly related to your post. But generally...
    It is strange how modern distribution of younger clades in this case E-BY3880 can't be considered as an argument for discussing ancient migrations. And on the other side, very old clades like E-M78 can be an argument to claim that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia.
    Double standards...
    I don't think that's a double standard, because its about probabilites. One major argument, actually the only one, against a Levantine and/or Anatolian entry point for the ancestors of E-V13 was that it was supposedly rare to non-existent in the Levante. But this is done, and will be completely refuted. I'm actually not sure about the exact entry point, I think both Anatolian land route and Levantine sea route is possible, considering the origins of Cardial-Impresso Ware. What this makes much less likely however, is any kind of direct leap from North Africa to Europe, because the problem with that view was always: With which culture, which group had that kind of impact?

    Its simply much more parsimonious to assume it was a minority element among Anatolian and Levantine farmers, entered ICC and possibly also LBK-related groups as well either directly or indirectly. So the presence of ancestral forms in the Near East for its own doesn't prove that route, but it disproves the only reasonable argument against it.

  11. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    If you believe V13 has nothing to do with ancient Greeks, how do you explain high V13 presence in Sicily and Southern Italy, but also on islands like Creta and Cyprus? You see this as a result of later migrations or by a different vector than Greek colonisation?
    Also in Cyrenaica of Libya. In such scenario of a late arrival of E-V13 subclades among Greeks, it will be still likely it entered before Strabo's times and his historical quote mentioned earlier
    Last edited by The Saite; 11-27-2020 at 11:57 AM.
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

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  13. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    Also in Cyrenaica of Libya. In such scenario of a late arrival of E-V13 subclades among Greeks, it will be still likely it entered before Strabo times and his historical quote mentioned earlier
    That's a certainty. The question is rather which clades and at which frequency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Its a tricky tricky one to interpret but I am not convinced the start of the Myceanean period represents the first arrival of Greeks speakers in Greece.
    Who argued in favor of that?

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    A strong point is the presence of E-V13 in South-Italy/Sicily/Cyprus, places with 0% Daco-Thracian presence.

    We should not forget that Liguria has 17.5% E-M35, i am pretty sure ~98% of the subclades are E-V13. Again, a place with 0% Daco-Thracian presence. There is much more movements involved to E-V13 rather than scoping down to Daco-Thracians.

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