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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #311
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    For Riverman and Bane, interesting read:

    https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dg...the_bronze.htm

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  3. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    For Riverman and Bane, interesting read:

    https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dg...the_bronze.htm

    Thanks! Probably the most significant part:

    Much more important, however, is the historical interpretation of the Mediana group. The importance of the Mediana group was already noticed in 1962, but true confirmation only took place after the extensive systematic excavations that took place in 1972 under the direction of M. Garasanin. This excavation offered the possibility with certainty, on the basis of the stratigraphy, to separate three distinct phases at Mediana I-III, The material culture of the first of these phases is very definitely related to the material culture found in Macedonia after the destruction of the Late Bronze Age settlement, winch marks the beginning of the Aegean Migration. On the basis of this we can infer that tribes emigrating from the Morava Lands area took place in the Aegean Migration. In any case they were only one of the component factors, that is to say, that they moved south down the Morava-Vardar Valley towards Greece and the Mycenaean world. On the other hand the tribes from Thrace and Dobrudza, played an important role in the destruction of Priam's Troy, which is reflected in the Homeric epics. It as also important to note that in Mediana during the period of the Aegean Migration that there are no traces of any settlement destruction over a large area, which would indicate that there were no incursions from the outside of any large extent. In other words, it is certain that some of the peoples from the Morava Lands area went south. They were most likely attracted by the riches of the Mycenaean world, and under the pressure of the other tribes that were moving south from further north. But it as evident that the cultural stream of events was not greatly disturbed. These are the archaeological facts that help to solve the historical problems that are so important for this period, and illuminate the significance of the Balkans in the Bronze Age.

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  5. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    Didn't this happen a little earlier, for example with the Roman legions?
    It's highly unlikely that V13 in Sicily and Southern Italy comes from Roman legions, these were not border areas. Roman legions can explain much of the V13 in other parts of Europe. And to come back to the original topic of the thread. Romanized population, especially the upper class and urban ones, fleeing the Southern Balkans when Slavs invaded could also explain a large part of V13 in Greece, where again there seems no structure in the distribution of subgroups. In that case it's fairly unlikely V13 had significant presence in ancient Greeks.

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    Slavs could have also brought assimilated E-V13 with them especially if the rumors that the early Slavs in the Balkans were serb-like are true.
    Also another large scale migration of non-Greek people is that of the Vlachs and Albanians. Vlachs were present in Greece much earlier, recorded in Greece by the tenth century and even had their own province in Thessaly, called Great Vlachia.
    In the 14th century however, there was another wave of migrations this time not only Vlachs but Albanians as well.
    Most affected territories of these Vlach-Albanian migrations were Pelloponese, Epirus and Thessaly where we see the largest spike of E-V13 on the territory of modern Greece.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  8. #315
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    Then you have to explain how Arvanites and Vlachs don't exceed ~20% E-V13 themselves. Mathematically unlikely IMO.

    The only logical explanation so far is that it was distributed around Balkans evenly with some variations more or less during LBA-EIA.
    Last edited by Hawk; 12-03-2020 at 08:13 AM.

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  10. #316
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    I don't think there is any study for the Greek Vlachs whatsoever... The Bosh study from 2006 is outdated and only tested 175 Aromuns from Albania, North Macedonia and Romania finding around 15% of haplogroup E-V13 among them. The Vlachs however have mixed origin and those from Greece are not necessarily the same as those from Albania. The Aromuns as a population aren't native in Greece. Even those living around Pindus are migrants from the territory of Albania from that second wave that came around the 14th century. I also said
    about thosee earlier Vlachs mentioned in the 10-th century on the territory of Greece who by all means should have been hellenised since long time ago and who should not be mistaken with the modern Aromuns.
    My point is that all these migrations brought E-V13 in Greece as well as very early migrants from more Northern areas when the Goths and the Huns first and Avars and the Slavs later started to raid and penetrate the northern provinces of the Roman Empire.
    These very early migrations could have increased the level of E-V13 in the later Byzantine empire which also held South Italy. There were large migrations from south Balkans to South Italy during the Byzantine Empire and even as late as the Ottoman times and not all of these were Albanians.
    Then again, modern frequencies could lead you into false assumptions. Modern frequencies could be the result of a founder effect. This is especially important because the STR variety of E-V13 in the Pelloponese is low...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  12. #317
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    EV13 it is getting weaker in areas where Dorians have settled like South Peloponnese,Crete and Islands.It is also there,where the autosomal DNA of Greeks it is somehow changes.South Peloponnesus is not so northern shifted genetically and they are affected much less compared to the rest of mainland.Cretans and Greek islanders as well.Southern Greece inclunding some islands are more likely to be Z2103.If such lineages did not arrived with Mycenaens-Achaeans then they arrived with a LBA/IA migration from the north.I am not sure if EV13 has anything to do with Greeks or later with migrations from the balkans but Z2103 is definitely associated either with Mycenaeans or with people arriving from the north during the LBA/IA.If proto-Greeks arrived from a R1a source,similar to Corded or KMK Babyno culture then these R1b lineages that we seeing in Greece have arrived during the LBA or IA period.The origins of Greeks and Dorians will remain unsolved,until we have more DNA from Mycenaeans and realize from what Steppe culture they come from.

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  14. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    For J2b we actually have quite some ancient DNA. For them I think it's very likely that they made their way from the Steppe to the upper Danube and from there went both to Italy and the Balkans around 2200BC, explaining the connections in older lines between Northern Italy/Sardinia on one hand and the Western Balkans on the other.
    Not Up-to-Date following the new aDNA studies concerned about J2b2. Would you further explain the Steppe theory?
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

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  16. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I am not sure if EV13 has anything to do with Greeks or later with migrations from the balkans but Z2103 is definitely associated either with Mycenaeans or with people arriving from the north during the LBA/IA.
    IMO the bold part should be plausible.
    I've been convinced that R-Z2103 reached Balkans before E-V13 for quite a long time.

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    Cetina culture phase where it penetrates into Greece?

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