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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    What is your source for the ages of branches. They all differ from what is on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

    Y30991 - 2900 years old
    Y167028 - 2800 years old
    Z38456 - 2300 years old (this one is similar to yours)
    BY4459 - 2200 years old

    So if you put those ages 400 years back then they do not fit into Slavic expansion.

    Regarding the second example which is BY4526, I can agree it is heavily Slavic but that is not valid for the BY4529 branch which appears in the Balkans. This branch separated from its "Slavic" relatives 2500 years ago. Which further means they were not Slavs at that moment, and even for several hundred years afterwards.

    I also appreciate your effort, but what you show here does not support arrival of CTS9320 to the Balkans with Slavs. On the contrary.
    I make my own estimations based on the FTDNA tree, since that's also what I base my text on. Some of them might be off, but the main one to see if Slavic expansion is a possibility is BY4459, which I put at 1800ybp. In fact I should have better taken the daughter clade BY4465, which has a date of 1700ybp at Yfull. That date seems very compatible with a Slavic expansion. For the other parts of Z17107 I'm not claiming they were part of the Slavic expansion to the Balkans, I just assume they are still more or less where Z17107 was in the Iron age, which I think is east of the Danube and around the Carpathians. So I think they did not move from the Balkan to Eastern-Europe, which is what you get when you put the origin of CTS9320 in the Balkans. Maybe I should also rephrase, because in the end it's maybe more accurate to say that BY4465 was part of the migrations to the Balkan together with the Slavs, as part of a large population dominated by Avars. In how far they would have thought of themselves as Slavs or have spoken a Slavic language when they moved across the Danube will never be known.
    Last edited by rafc; 12-07-2020 at 12:42 PM.

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  3. #362
    Yes, the range of SNPs of Big-Y700s under BY4465 is between 17 and 26 = average 21,5*83y = 1784y. But, looking at I2a-Y3120 clades as perfect proxies for Slavic migrations into the Balkans one will see that there is no Balkan subclade which lacks an Eastern European sister clade within the time range of 1800y. Additionally, all these "Slavic" subclades show some kind of demographic expansion before entering the Balkans.

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  5. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    Yes, the range of SNPs of Big-Y700s under BY4465 is between 17 and 26 = average 21,5*83y = 1784y. But, looking at I2a-Y3120 clades as perfect proxies for Slavic migrations into the Balkans one will see that there is no Balkan subclade which lacks an Eastern European sister clade within the time range of 1800y. Additionally, all these "Slavic" subclades show some kind of demographic expansion before entering the Balkans.
    Maybe they don't have a clear Eastern European sisterclade because they were not part of the original Slavs and only got swept up in the ones going south together with the Avars. So they wouldn't have been in contact with the Slavs going north or east.

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  7. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Maybe they don't have a clear Eastern European sisterclade because they were not part of the original Slavs and only got swept up in the ones going south together with the Avars. So they wouldn't have been in contact with the Slavs going north or east.
    This explanation implies that (i) there already were at least 3 sisterclades before the 6th century AD hiding in the northern Carpathians (Y161799, Y97307* and Y92017 - because all 3 are seperated by 1700y) and (ii) all 3 subclades came with the Slavic/Avar incursions to the Balkans and left no one behind and (iii) all 3 subclades were illyrianised over time. How does one call the opposite of Ockham´s razor? ;-)

  8. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikulic33 View Post
    Yes, the range of SNPs of Big-Y700s under BY4465 is between 17 and 26 = average 21,5*83y = 1784y. But, looking at I2a-Y3120 clades as perfect proxies for Slavic migrations into the Balkans one will see that there is no Balkan subclade which lacks an Eastern European sister clade within the time range of 1800y. Additionally, all these "Slavic" subclades show some kind of demographic expansion before entering the Balkans.
    Exactly.
    And there is no such identifiable E-CTS9320 clade although this doesn't deny the Carpathian origin of E-CTS9320 which according to the diversity in the Carpathian region of Slovakia, Poland, Romania and Hungary looks more and more probable, something I suspected long ago. And not only that but E-CTS9320 is probably the best subclade of E-V13 which can be associated with the LBA-EIA migrations into the Balkans and further to Anatolia. It probably can be the best associated with Gava-Holihrady culture. Some clades of E-CTS9320 such as E-Z17264 penetrated deepest into the Balkans and Anatolia and can be easily associated with the Thracians or the Phrygians who were known to have migrated to Anatolia. Although E-CTS9320 was the most prominent, there were obviously other subclades with similar history although less prominent such as E-A7135 that can be found both among the Armenians and among the Balkan people which would show that most of these subclades were part of the same people around the LBA before splitting away and the epicenter was most probably the Carpathian area.

    Now, the subsequent Scythian, Germanic, Turkic and Slavic invasions of the area probably assimilated and helped spread these subclades further away in Europe and Asia. The Germanics especially were known to keep relations to their distant home although traveling far and wide so probably some of these subclades that appear in Scandinavia are results of such ventures.

    The Slavs later would also help spread clades such as E-CTS9320 although after the serious devastations of the Carpathian area and the repeated invasions of Germanic, Iranic and Turkic people the land was probably largely depopulated. Another migration from the Carpathian lands to the Balkans that is often neglected is the evacuation of Dacia by the Romans. Some sort of pottery characteristic for the native Carpathian people appears as late as the Chernyakhov culture however it's largely missing in later dates when the Slavs appeared on the horizon. Nevertheless, I expect some E-V13 clade to show up in the feature that might have taken part in the Slavs making and ethnogenesis. Such clades exist in other haplogroups such as this one: R-Y14300, which shows parallel with other Uber Slavic clades such as TMRCA = 2000 ybp and which might confirm that some Carpathian tribes such as Carpi or others might have been involved in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs. And this TMRCA = 2200-2000 should be noted because many Uber Slavic clades show such TMRCA.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  10. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The Slavs later would also help spread clades such as E-CTS9320 although after the serious devastations of the Carpathian area and the repeated invasions of Germanic, Iranic and Turkic people the land was probably largely depopulated. Another migration from the Carpathian lands to the Balkans that is often neglected is the evacuation of Dacia by the Romans. Some sort of pottery characteristic for the native Carpathian people appears as late as the Chernyakhov culture however it's largely missing in later dates when the Slavs appeared on the horizon. Nevertheless, I expect some E-V13 clade to show up in the feature that might have taken part in the Slavs making and ethnogenesis. Such clades exist in other haplogroups such as this one: R-Y14300, which shows parallel with other Uber Slavic clades such as TMRCA = 2000 ybp and which might confirm that some Carpathian tribes such as Carpi or others might have been involved in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs. And this TMRCA = 2200-2000 should be noted because many Uber Slavic clades show such TMRCA.
    The situation of Slavs and pre-Slavs especially in the Carpathian-Pannonian sphere seems to have been very complex. So I think that we might have had, even early on, mixed clans which turned Slavic and others becoming Hungarian, Vlach/Romanian, Albanian or Greek. Obviously some of these groups, both Vlachs and Slavs, moved on or expanded into new territoreis in Medieval times. Actually there is no other way than that to explain the rather wild distribution of various Slavic and pre-Slavic clades.

    What about https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/ ?

    Looks quite Germanic-Slavic, but are there any samples recorded between CTS1273 and L540 to make its position clear for the more distant past? Could be a candidate for something like a Lusatian survivor or Hallstatt culture bearer moving North?

    This makes the lack of autosomal data, G25 and PCA for kra005 even worse.

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  12. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The situation of Slavs and pre-Slavs especially in the Carpathian-Pannonian sphere seems to have been very complex. So I think that we might have had, even early on, mixed clans which turned Slavic and others becoming Hungarian, Vlach/Romanian, Albanian or Greek. Obviously some of these groups, both Vlachs and Slavs, moved on or expanded into new territoreis in Medieval times. Actually there is no other way than that to explain the rather wild distribution of various Slavic and pre-Slavic clades.

    What about https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/ ?

    Looks quite Germanic-Slavic, but are there any samples recorded between CTS1273 and L540 to make its position clear for the more distant past? Could be a candidate for something like a Lusatian survivor or Hallstatt culture bearer moving North?

    This makes the lack of autosomal data, G25 and PCA for kra005 even worse.
    Yes, L540 pretty much resembles the timing (expansion around 2000ybp) and geographical distribution of a typical West-Slavic clade (including northern (Swedes) and western (Germans) offshots) like this one : https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP254/

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  14. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The situation of Slavs and pre-Slavs especially in the Carpathian-Pannonian sphere seems to have been very complex. So I think that we might have had, even early on, mixed clans which turned Slavic and others becoming Hungarian, Vlach/Romanian, Albanian or Greek. Obviously some of these groups, both Vlachs and Slavs, moved on or expanded into new territoreis in Medieval times. Actually there is no other way than that to explain the rather wild distribution of various Slavic and pre-Slavic clades.

    What about https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/ ?

    Looks quite Germanic-Slavic, but are there any samples recorded between CTS1273 and L540 to make its position clear for the more distant past? Could be a candidate for something like a Lusatian survivor or Hallstatt culture bearer moving North?

    This makes the lack of autosomal data, G25 and PCA for kra005 even worse.
    Thinking of E-CTS9320 I totally forgot about E-L540, how stupid of me. Yes, E-L540 is a prime example of a Slavic haplogroup, TMRCA fits perfectly. I don't think that it's a Germanic in origin because the Germanics don't show such bottlenecks characteristic of the Slavs. And E-L540 is seriously bottlenecked. Although it's missing largely in the Balkans(found in a Serb however), I still think it's a good representation of a founding E-V13 subclade among Slavs. The Slavic part in south Slavs obviously stem from a small population that was quite rich in I-Y3120 unlike the rest where we see dominance of R1a and as such could have had overrepresentation of some original Slavic haplogroups over others.

    I'm not sure that there are any samples in-between CTS5856 and L540, I believe not.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  16. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The Slavic part in south Slavs obviously stem from a small population that was quite rich in I-Y3120 unlike the rest where we see dominance of R1a and as such could have had overrepresentation of some original Slavic haplogroups over others.
    I know that might sound somewhat blasphemic to some, but unless we have actual Proto-Slavic samples, more of, we don't know whether the Proto-Slavs were more diverse or not. I would be always careful in this respect, because sometimes fairly small groups can expand rapidly and gain diversity in a second run, whereas the original core group does not. Probably the Pannonian Slavs, which being now largely lost in history, took with them a lot of the original variation too. Who knows for sure. Its less likely than a totally R1a dominated Proto-Slav group probably, but who knows. Like I said, some branches can be more successful than others and this can totally skew the later distribution. Like the steppe people before the back migration of CW-related groups were quite different too, but the CWC derived lineages just became totally dominant.

    They just need to get data from Komarów and Chernoles imho, then we might know what early (Balto-) Slavs looked like genetically and whether they were even more homogeneous than later (likely) or showed some diversity, of which parts got even lost in meantime.

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  18. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Thinking of E-CTS9320 I totally forgot about E-L540, how stupid of me. Yes, E-L540 is a prime example of a Slavic haplogroup, TMRCA fits perfectly. I don't think that it's a Germanic in origin because the Germanics don't show such bottlenecks characteristic of the Slavs. And E-L540 is seriously bottlenecked. Although it's missing largely in the Balkans(found in a Serb however), I still think it's a good representation of a founding E-V13 subclade among Slavs. The Slavic part in south Slavs obviously stem from a small population that was quite rich in I-Y3120 unlike the rest where we see dominance of R1a and as such could have had overrepresentation of some original Slavic haplogroups over others.

    I'm not sure that there are any samples in-between CTS5856 and L540, I believe not.
    See for example the recent discussion on L540 on the Haplozone: http://community.haplozone.net/index...665.0#msg42963

    The S3003 node is just above L540.

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