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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I don't see that as a big problem. In East Germany there is significant number of people which are descendants of Slavs. At some point of history their ancestors were germanized and today they speak with a German dialect which is different from dialects in other parts of Germany.
    Well,it is not only the Dorian dialect but 2 more dialects being also related to proto-Greek but ofc less IE influenced.The upcoming Greek dialects like Ionic,Aeolic,Doric are all less IE and more native(neolithic lets say).During IA we have a big change in the Greek demographics.If these people come from northwest.. they should have bring with them some type of dialect or
    ioan-words related with Illyrians,Thracians,Celts or whatever.What we see.. after the collaspe of Mycaenean culture is 3 new dialects taking place,and all of them being less IE related compared to the Proto-Greek dialect.My point is...a population-group who come from north/northwest it should have been more IE related and not less IE.It dosn't making sense. The Dorian invasion witch btw is not an 100% confirmed hypothesis shows a big destruction,burning land and palaces and what these people(Myceneans-Greeks) have done.. it was to flied to mountainous areas or to islands to escape the truncation.Let me be clear.I do not disagree that EV13 lineages might arrived in Greece during the IA period but calling these people hellenized Illyrians sounds more like a nationalistic propaganda with a very retarted(allow me to say) bias/agenda.As for the Germanic dialect that you mention above..can you plss tell me witch one is this?
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 11-16-2020 at 11:25 PM.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Let me be clear.I do not disagree that EV13 lineages might arrived in Greece during the IA period but calling these people hellenized Illyrians sounds more like a nationalistic propaganda with a very retarted(allow me to say) bias/agenda.As for the Germanic dialect that you mention above..can you plss tell me witch one is this?
    I assure you I don't have such agenda. Seems to me you are a bit offended so with this statement of yours we can call it even, if you agree?
    It is obvious you know much more about Greek linguistics and most probably about Greek history, so I assume I would not be an appropriate counterpart for the discussion.

    I will also try to clarify my motives. I'm Serb with ancestry from Southeast Serbia. One of my closest matches is a Greek from Gjirokaster, Albania. He hasn't done Big Y (or similar) but everything points to him being my branch. I think two of us are even mentioned in the beginning of this topic. Our branch is also present in areas of Northwest Bosnia.
    If we go further, my A11837 branch is found in Sardinia, and I already have theory that it got there with Greek colonization in the Iron Age. So if I would bring it down to the basic goal - it is understand whether my line is either Dorian or Illyrian (or both)?
    So when I wrote my post a couple of hours ago that was my (possibly retarded) agenda.

    Regarding the Geman dialects you can read about that here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_Slavs
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dialects

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I assure you I don't have such agenda. Seems to me you are a bit offended so with this statement of yours we can call it even, if you agree?
    It is obvious you know much more about Greek linguistics and most probably about Greek history, so I assume I would not be an appropriate counterpart for the discussion.

    I will also try to clarify my motives. I'm Serb with ancestry from Southeast Serbia. One of my closest matches is a Greek from Gjirokaster, Albania. He hasn't done Big Y (or similar) but everything points to him being my branch. I think two of us are even mentioned in the beginning of this topic. Our branch is also present in areas of Northwest Bosnia.
    If we go further, my A11837 branch is found in Sardinia, and I already have theory that it got there with Greek colonization in the Iron Age. So if I would bring it down to the basic goal - it is understand whether my line is either Dorian or Illyrian (or both)?
    So when I wrote my post a couple of hours ago that was my (possibly retarded) agenda.

    Regarding the Geman dialects you can read about that here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_Slavs
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dialects
    Well,i am not offended and i don't care actually if Dorians(if these people existed for real lol) had been an Illyrian-Thracian or Celtic tribe.But calling them..without having proves or ancient DNA in general..hellenized Illyrians sounds a little bit odd.. i guess.I am telling you again,i am not avoiding this fact..that such lineages arrived in Greece with northern populations during the IA period.. but you forgot something.Greece,Albania,Serbia and the whole area of balkans were under the Roman and Byzantine empires.As you see from autosomal DNA most people from the balkans have mixed with Slavs.There were also Vlach movements who themselfes also come in contact with Slavs... so it is very hard to categorize a specific EV13 lineage to a specific tribe-subgroup or to a historical movement-migration.Since we lack ancient DNA we just guessworking here.As for your example.. it sounds okay(btw Greeks did not colonized Sardinia)but still you cannot know 100% why you and the guy from Gjirokaster sharing this lineage.It might be Illyrian,Greek,Vlach,Slav,Roman,Celt or whatever.Also modern Greeks and more specific mainland Greeks have origins from Albanian people(Arvanites),Vlachs(Aromanians),they have mixed with Slavs and they have raided by east Germanics and Celts.How we can know what lineages are native and what lineages coming from the north without having a single sample?The IA in general is a very dark and mysterious period especially for Greece.But the samples we got from classical Greeks does not showing big changes in terms of autosomal DNA, witch means even if Greece reveived a genetic flow from the north..it means these people did not had a big genetic impact to the natives.IMO,we have to do mostly with a mountainous group somewhere from Albania or Epirus(northwest Greece) that moved southern and that's all.They might have been influenced from central Europe and thus they brought some new weapons,customs and policies and thats why prolly the Spartans and people who used to speak the Doric dialect were more millitaristic and had a more warfare lifestyle.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 11-17-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    btw Greeks did not colonized Sardinia
    Not significantly, but some did go there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbia#History

  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Not significantly, but some did go there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbia#History
    Well,do not taking wiki so serious when it comes to history especially(everyones can write whatever he likes).I don't think Greeks had a big impact to Sardinia than to what they have in South Italy.But thats not the point...since we don't have DNA from Greece proving that EV13 was a major yDNA we just guessworking and nothing else.Someone else can easily claim that is an Illyrian pirate lol, or a slave, or even a 'Sea people' Chad.

  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Well,do not taking wiki so serious when it comes to history especially(everyones can write whatever he likes).I don't think Greeks had a big impact to Sardinia than to what they have in South Italy.But thats not the point...since we don't have DNA from Greece proving that EV13 was a major yDNA we just guessworking and nothing else.Someone else can easily claim that is an Illyrian pirate lol, or a slave, or even a 'Sea people' Chad.
    Personally, I have no doubts that most of E-V13 came to South Italy including Sicily with the Iron Age Greek colonization.

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  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    Personally, I have no doubts that most of E-V13 came to South Italy including Sicily with the Iron Age Greek colonization.
    My yDNA is also frenquent in Italy,Anatolia,Greece and it can be found in all over the east med area...but it means zero.Such lineages can easily be associated with Neolithic Farmers.EV13 can be found even among English/British folks what it means..that Spartans moved to Britain?You can't prove without ancient DNA...

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    My yDNA is also frenquent in Italy,Anatolia,Greece and it can be found in all over the east med area...but it means zero.Such lineages can easily be associated with Neolithic Farmers.EV13 can be found even among English/British folks what it means..that Spartans moved to Britain?You can't prove without ancient DNA...
    If everything "means zero" then why are you on this forum ?
    I've learned a lot about history from genetic genealogy and ancient DNA. If I had the approach you are now showing the result would indeed be around zero.

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  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    If everything "means zero" then why are you on this forum ?
    I've learned a lot about history from genetic genealogy and ancient DNA. If I had the approach you are now showing the result would indeed be around zero.
    The diffrence between you and me.. is that i am talking with facts and ancient DNA.You on the other hand.. just guessing.Well,i am guessing as well sometimes,but at least i am not a dogmatic. It is good to have an opinion and believes about ancient DNA.. but the problem with you is that you puting labels like your previous post as 'Hellenized Illyrians'.Even historians and archeologist debating if the Dorian invasion existed for real and you found out who they were and what lineages they carried lel

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  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    The diffrence between you and me.. is that i am talking with facts and ancient DNA.You on the other hand.. just guessing.Well,i am guessing as well sometimes,but at least i am not a dogmatic. It is good to have an opinion and believes about ancient DNA.. but the problem with you is that you puting labels like your previous post as 'Hellenized Illyrians'.Even historians and archeologist debating if the Dorian invasion existed for real and you found out who they were and what lineages they carried lel
    Again a lot of talk, but no result.

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