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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    So what are you saying? That an IE dialect arrived with J2 and G2 Neolithic people rather with r1b/r1a lineages? You forget that there is steppe DNA among Mycenaeans. It's impossible the Greek language to arrived in Greece from Anatolia/Aegean and not from modern Ukraine/Moldova from a steppe related source. We don't have enough samples from bronze and iron age Greeks. So, i would suggest you to not hurry. BTW there are some R1b lineages among Greeks. Without saying that proto-Greeks were R1b. There are possibilities of being R1a. We should wait for ancient DNA.
    I don't believe in current IE dialect theory because loan words exist and languages along with accents can change and grow over time dependent on new cultures, I believe dna tells the full story. There is no reason for modern Greeks to have so little r1b (some of their r1b is BY611 so doesn't count) if their civilizations were 50-100% r1b. Again a lot of r1a in modern Greeks is slavic not ancient Greek

    J2a and g2 have been found in ancient greece so those are the ancient greeks until we get more data to disprove it. If you look at South Italy a lot of people there are also j2a and g2 - because ancient greeks settled south Italy and they weren't r1b at all
    Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 02-10-2021 at 01:58 PM.

  2. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I don't believe in current IE dialect theory because loan words exist and languages along with accents can change and grow over time dependent on new cultures, I believe dna tells the full story. There is no reason for modern Greeks to have so little r1b (some of their r1b is BY611 so doesn't count) if their civilizations were 50-100% r1b. Again a lot of r1a in modern Greeks is slavic not ancient Greek

    J2a and g2 have been found in ancient greece so those are the ancient greeks until we get more data to disprove it. If you look at South Italy a lot of people there are also j2a and g2 - because ancient greeks settled south Italy and they weren't r1b at all

    First of all modern Greeks are not exactly the same people as their forefathers.Second,EV13 is the dominant male lineage in mainland parts.J2a is frenquent in southern areas and more specific in Crete.Cycladic and Minoan civilization would have been indeed mostly J2a/G2a people.In general our data is limited,with 2 samples you can't say for sure that bronze age Greeks were mostly J2a.Also keep in mind that Mycenaeans/Achaeans were the first tribe.After with Iron age and with the Greek Dark ages other tribes will settled southern.We lack genomes from Iron Age period.Also to mention that the J2a lineages you talking about are unsampled.We have no idea what specific clades Bronze Age Greeks belonged.That is making it a little bit hard to compare them with the J2a lineages of some Greeks and South Italians.The fact some Greeks and Italians are J2a and G2a does not making these people direct ancestors of Ancient Greeks.You have to check deeper the clades they belong and compare them with those of Bronze Age and Ancient Greeks.Such lineages like J2a/G2a can be easily coming from the bronze age anatolia.I am a G2a-M406 lineager with ancestry from Anatolia...and this specific lineage can be found in the 'east med'(from Turkey to South Italy) that means i have a Greek ancestor or my lineage is Greek?You need to explore deeper clades to have a better conclusion.G2a lineages both in Greece and Turkey can be easily considered native neolithic markers,that assilimated later to what we call Minoans/Mycenaeans etc.About Proto-Greeks i mention it above,it is impossible a language like this to come in balkans without a R1a/R1b population.You don't believe that steppe females forced neolithic/copper age non IE males to speak an IE dialect right?That seems an extreme case.

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  4. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There could have been a switch on the way, somewhere between Moldova and Northern Greece to a higher proportion of J2a in particular. This is possible, but the question is what is "Proto-Greek" in this context? The tribe still on the steppe? The tribe on the move? The group living in what is now Bulgaria most likely? Or the ones which actually entered Greece? The latter could have been J2a dominated, but rather unlikely they had no R1(b) lineage.
    There is no way females to forced males to speak a foreign dialect.What happened with proto-greek IMO is that these males were a 'small elite warrior clan' and during the periods their lineages vanished mixing badly with the natives.A similar case with anatolian Turks.They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages.Their autosomal is there,but their yDNA markers are not.We can see this with the recent samples from Northern Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The ancient DNA is scarce. However if you have followed this forum you might have heard some rumors of yet to be published data that confirms presence of R-Z2103 among the Mycenaeans. Of course this is yet to be officialized however modern Greeks and especially Armenians have have quite a lot of R-Z2103, NOT the western R1b. How did it arrive there? The Greek R-Z2103 is diverse just to mention in order someone tries to connect it to more recent R-BY611 which is of Albanian origin and spread throughout the Balkans with the Albanian migrations.



    Nothing can be said for certain when it comes to an extinct language which is examined mainly with the help of toponyms and patronyms and which relies on reconstructed words. What the evidence suggests so far is that there is quite a similarities with the modern Baltic languages than anything else. Moreso than with other Balkan languages such as Greek or Albanian. There is a lot of material on the matter. I am aware of quite many linguists who support all this. Can you tell us something more which we don't know and who is opposing this view in particular?
    Rumours but we need facts. The date is also important if its around 1200bc the r1b could be from dorian invasion instead of proper ancient greeks. What are the frequencies of z2103 among modern Greeks and Armenians?

    z2103 is still a mystery as is v13, it is difficult to say which one possibly formed thracian or illyrian culture without ancient dna - we need ancient dna from Bulgaria and Romania to determine a source - as far as I'm aware thracian language has little identity left today as Romania became fully romanized and then had hefty South slavic input and Bulgarians speak a South slavic language. It is unlikely that much thracian y dna remains today though they did intermingle with ancient Greeks and gave them the Dionysian and Orphean cults, so could find some there or maybe Thracians became Armenians?
    Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 02-10-2021 at 02:33 PM.

  6. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    There is no way females to forced males to speak a foreign dialect.What happened with proto-greek IMO is that these males were a 'small elite warrior clan' and during the periods their lineages vanished mixing badly with the natives.A similar case with anatolian Turks.They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages.Their autosomal is there,but their yDNA markers are not.We can see this with the recent samples from Northern Greece.
    There is more Central Asian Turkic Y-DNA in Anatolia than you think. Some of the J2a among Anatolian Turks is of Turkish origin . Same goes for R1a and R1b as well in that some of the classes there came with Turkic groups. Very likely all of the N and Q is from Central Asian Turkic groups as well.

  7. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There could have been a switch on the way, somewhere between Moldova and Northern Greece to a higher proportion of J2a in particular. This is possible, but the question is what is "Proto-Greek" in this context? The tribe still on the steppe? The tribe on the move? The group living in what is now Bulgaria most likely? Or the ones which actually entered Greece? The latter could have been J2a dominated, but rather unlikely they had no R1(b) lineage.
    Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?
    I think it works out like that:
    On top of the Neolithic inhabitants came from Asia minor colonists which were heavy in Iranian-like ancestry and spread Minoan-related people. From these the majority of J2 in modern groups is coming from, but before those J2 already spread and with them too, further up the North. When a fairly small group of steppe agro-pastoralists came in, they fused with those and formed Proto-Greeks to the North of what is Greece, probably in Romania-Bulgaria. When the next push from the steppe came, this most likely R1b+J2 Proto-Greeks moved South and conquered Greece, where they mixed with people being even more J. Those were the Mycenaeans.
    The next push was a fusion of such R1b-J2 early Greeks with new Urnfield-related elements coming with Illyrians and especially Thracians. This fused groups, mainly assocaited with Dorians, would be heavy E-V13 and introduced it to Greece on a big scale. Yet even afterwards E-V13 would have continued to trickle in, especially with Thracians, and in the North in particular. The former, more R1b heavy Mycenaean elite would have been pushed down the ranks and being not as numerous from the start, also the incoming J2 would have been less numerous than the local ones. I guess latest with the Thracians some R1a should have spread too, alongside E-V13, brought in by Iranian-related groups. On a low level of course. Part of the "Slavic-like" ancestry might be more ancient and related to Thraco-Cimmerians and Iranians too I guess.

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  10. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think it works out like that:
    On top of the Neolithic inhabitants came from Asia minor colonists which were heavy in Iranian-like ancestry and spread Minoan-related people. From these the majority of J2 in modern groups is coming from, but before those J2 already spread and with them too, further up the North. When a fairly small group of steppe agro-pastoralists came in, they fused with those and formed Proto-Greeks to the North of what is Greece, probably in Romania-Bulgaria. When the next push from the steppe came, this most likely R1b+J2 Proto-Greeks moved South and conquered Greece, where they mixed with people being even more J. Those were the Mycenaeans.
    The next push was a fusion of such R1b-J2 early Greeks with new Urnfield-related elements coming with Illyrians and especially Thracians. This fused groups, mainly assocaited with Dorians, would be heavy E-V13 and introduced it to Greece on a big scale. Yet even afterwards E-V13 would have continued to trickle in, especially with Thracians, and in the North in particular. The former, more R1b heavy Mycenaean elite would have been pushed down the ranks and being not as numerous from the start, also the incoming J2 would have been less numerous than the local ones. I guess latest with the Thracians some R1a should have spread too, alongside E-V13, brought in by Iranian-related groups. On a low level of course. Part of the "Slavic-like" ancestry might be more ancient and related to Thraco-Cimmerians and Iranians too I guess.
    Hopefully we get some more ancient Balkan Y-DNA within the next few months. I am interested in seeing what the Y-DNA haplogroup profiles of the Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians are. I have seen some information on here indicating that the upcoming Thracian results are E-V13 heavy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Hopefully we get some more ancient Balkan Y-DNA within the next few months. I am interested in seeing what the Y-DNA haplogroup profiles of the Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians are. I have seen some information on here indicating that the upcoming Thracian results are E-V13 heavy.
    They must be, that's like a puzzle, we have enough pieces, and the remaining gaps can't be anything, they must fill in. So Thracians must be very E-V13 heavy and since they were formed by massive influx from the North and East, that's the direction we have to look for and the main movement seems to have been Fluted Ware and especially Gáva-Holigrady in the LBA-EIA transition. Dacians should be more Cimmerian-Iranian shifted, so more R1b and R1a relatively, but the same influences range from Dacians down to Northern Greece, just the ratio of R1a : E-V13 : R1b : J2a will change, because that depends on the first vs. last stratum from a North -> South direction. However, the whole picture gets complicated by fusions and clans which participated in later strata, even though coming from earlier movements originally. Like I expect J2a both coming in with early Greeks and being present before.
    The real question is not whether Thracians have E-V13 therefore, because if not that would be such a huge surprise, but where they got it from EXACTLY.

  13. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    There is more Central Asian Turkic Y-DNA in Anatolia than you think. Some of the J2a among Anatolian Turks is of Turkish origin . Same goes for R1a and R1b as well in that some of the classes there came with Turkic groups. Very likely all of the N and Q is from Central Asian Turkic groups as well.
    No they are Not. I have checked them many times. Onur Dincer Witch is the expert In Turkish genetics have mention it as Well. The Turkoman lineages Are very rare among modern Turks. The vast majority of their J2a Are of native stock. Similar case with R1a and R1b

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