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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    No they are Not. I have checked them many times. Onur Dincer Witch is the expert In Turkish genetics have mention it as Well. The Turkoman lineages Are very rare among modern Turks. The vast majority of their J2a Are of native stock. Similar case with R1a and R1b
    You wrote this earlier "They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages"....The true Turkic lineages are a minority but they are not definitely not zero.

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  3. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?
    R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

    1. Modern Greeks have little of it
    2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
    3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

    Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people

  4. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    You wrote this earlier "They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages"....The true Turkic lineages are a minority but they are not definitely not zero.
    For the number of their population its really low. Definitely not more than 3-5% of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

    1. Modern Greeks have little of it
    2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
    3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

    Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people
    Wait for Mycenaean Greeks, especially elite burials being sampled in larger numbers and for their direct ancestors from the steppe in their station on the way around the Carpathians South. Those matters, not moderns. And even among ancient Greeks, the massive Dorian influx could have shifted everything. If losing, elites can either fuse with the newly incoming people, usually if the old structures being kept alive, like for Mycenaeans, Hittites and Indo-Aryans, or if its a tribal replacement, the old elite can be hit the hardest. I guess Mycenaean elite was hit very hard by the dark ages already and the influx of Dorians and Thracians.

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  7. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

    1. Modern Greeks have little of it
    2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
    3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

    Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people
    well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece
    Where is the link for ancient greeks being from the steppe? What makes you believe that so strongly?

    In terms of v13 in late ancient greece there would have been some of it as can be evidenced below with modern dna - v13 is currently non existent in early periods of proper ancient greece itself but may have been brought there from either dorians, illyrians or thracians, the mystery of v13 continues

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4/#!po=37.0968
    Last edited by ShpataEMadhe; 02-10-2021 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece
    Indeed, R1b was likely marching South with Cernavoda and Proto-Anatolians before. So not every R1b found must be Greek, unless its clearly associated with Greek language speakers of the Mycenaean period in particular and even then some might have been assimilated local elites. For the final verdict the whole migration path needs to be reconstructed with pre- and post-comparisons.

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  12. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Of course we can spot this discrepancy but I'm not sure that CTS1273 moved from West Balkans to East as you was saying before. Otherwise how would you explain the existence of E-BY6550 in North-Western Europe and none in the Balkans? It's very probable that this lineage was part of the CWC expansion and this didn't took place through the Balkans but rather from the western outskirts of the PC steppe, upwards following the eastern slopes of the Carpathians into the Baltic region and Poland. So it's very probable that E-BY6550 was assimilated somewhere on that path, somewhere around the Carpathians. In that sense, I think of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian haplogroup, it was somewhere around the Carpathians when it was assimilated by CWC groups, not Yamnaya as you was suggesting before. Yamnaya was more like the ancestor of the first groups of Indo-Europeans in the Balkans that gave birth of the Anatolian, Greek, Armenian languages. As we all start to agree that E-V13 was very represented among the Thracian-Getae-Dacian groups and we already have seen published samples of some of these and heard rumors of unpublished yet samples, we get a clear picture of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian group in accordance with the places inhabited by Dacians-Getae-Thracians people. What little we know about the Thracian language there is no doubt it was a close relative of the Baltic languages which of course should be descendants of some earlier CWC language that was spoken by some CWC groups. According to Ivan Duridanov, of about 200 reconstructed Thracian words, most cognates (138) appear in the Baltic languages, mostly in Lithuanian, followed by Germanic (61). Therefore we can assume that Thracian language was the language of some CWC people and E-V13 was most probably indo-europenized by CWC groups, NOT Yamnaya ones who should have been the ancestors of the proto-Greeks, Anatolians and Armenians.
    Of course Yamnaya groups are behind the Armenian, Greek, and Albanian too.. I find it unlikely that an early branch of V13 which is very diverse in W.Balkans has nothing to do with the Cardial Neolithic remnant present there and which took part in ethnogenesis of some EBA cultures.. Years ago I remember people predicting based on Spanish Cardial V13 result that the Dalmatian Cardials, including, other descendant cultures will be V13. And it was no surprise L618 was found there..

    The Steppe element did come in contact with those Cardial survivors and they continued their existence, later forming Cetina culture. This Steppe element is not exactly a clear picture. Some called it Cernavoda III people (so Anatolian speakers), others Yamnaya. But they happen to be related to the so called Balkan epi-Corded Ware pottery, and I believe V13 has certain relation to this phenomenon.

    I need to look more closely what those people were exactly.. I believe this fits into the age and phylogeny of V13.

    Also of those Carpathian E-V13 some, a minority of them are Vlach incomers in Medieval times.
    For ex.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/

    Not native there.. Clustering with Albanians, Macedonian Miyak..


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    These finds were the reason why some maps of Thracians living up to the Baltic shores circulated on internet. Maps such as this one:

    Therefore IMO CTS1273 never moved from the West Balkans to the East but rather the ancestor of Y37092 moved to the West Balkans from an area around the Carpathians. Y37092 was probably born in the West Balkans but it's ancestor wasn't native there.
    Thracian language might have been related to Baltic but their autosomal profile was very far from those.

    Iron Age Thracian and Moldovan Scythianized Getae being closer to IA Anatolian than to proto-Slavs..

    Distance to: BGR_IA:I5769
    0.08178030 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
    0.13215074 TUR_IA:MA2198
    0.17006803 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


    Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy197
    0.10794437 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
    0.12018260 TUR_IA:MA2198
    0.13569677 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


    Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy192
    0.09824277 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
    0.10829919 TUR_IA:MA2198
    0.13844227 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


    And there are some very interesting results when looking at some of these samples actually, which might support my POV.
    Last edited by Huban; 02-10-2021 at 10:36 PM.

  13. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Second,EV13 is the dominant male lineage in mainland parts.
    Are you aware how many Greek V13's are of recent Albanian or Vlach origin? A whole lot of them..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    The Steppe element did come in contact with those Cardial survivors and they continued their existence...
    So far I agree, but what you forgot is that E1b1b was widespread across Europe in the Neolithic. The Iberian find is a fringe group representatives. More important are Michelsberger, Lengyel-Sopot and Tripolye-Cucuteni. In all these three groups, spanning from France to Ukraine, E1b1b and likely E-V13 as well, was present. The first possible survivor of the steppe expansion being possibly found in the Nitra-culture, related to the Urnfield-networks later. There are also other E1b1b clades which seem to have survived in the North, the specific E-V13 which spread was just a more successful clan, which managed to survive and keep rising in an Epi-Corded Ware environment. You have to look at the TMRCA's, there is very little overlap between the Balkan and other E-V13 clades after the LBA-EIA transition and the Balkan ones are fairly shallow, so they all spread at the same time, to the North and West, as well as the South and East. The ideal centre is the Northern Carpathian zone and apparantly Pannonia too, which later was heavily E-V13, wasn't so in the EBA at all. From the MBA, especially LBA on, the movement of people was going North -> South with mass migrations, not the opposite direction, only in the Roman times. So the natural explanaton is the spread through Urnfield related expansions, not before, not that much afterwards.

    The Proto-Thracians were not as North Eastern shifted as Proto-Slavs most likely, but we still need Lusatian and Gáva-Holigrady samples for comparison, which is a problem, because they cremated. However, in the developed IA, they already mixed with locals, so to the original difference, the admixture adds up. Historical Thracians are not necessarily identical to thier unmixed ancestors.
    Last edited by Riverman; 02-10-2021 at 04:58 PM.

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