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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    ...duplicate....
    Ye.It seems a very weird scenario for what exactly happened during the Bronze Age Collapse and with the Greek Dark Ages.It is very likely that people from the north.... you can call them as you want(Dorians,Sea People,Illyrians or whatever) to kicked out big amounts of native lineages-markers,thus mainland Greece becoming more EV13.And these lineages that left mainland went to islands,cyprus,anatolia etc.What it makes me wonder is why they did not brought a different dialect with them,instead we have 3 new dialects taking place in Greece and all of them belong to Greek.I think a similar senario took place in Albania.Most of the neolithic lineages kicked out and EV13 dominance for the most part.I see J2b as an important lineage as well,R1b inclunding.What we can say for sure is that the Greek and Illyrian ethnogenesis are a combination of people before the LBA collapse and the people who are responsible for it.In terms of autosomal DNA i do not expect huge diffrences between Epirotes,northern Greeks,Thracians and the Illyrian tribes of south Albania at least.I think they would have been very close to each other.Some diffrences maybe between the steppe/CHG/Iran N ratios.But mostly EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's likely that some part of E-V13 were non-IE speaking as well, like Pelasgians which Gimbutas thought were Late Bronze Age invaders from the borders of Serbia and Romania (that's what Marija Gimbutas was thinking based on some archeological evidences).
    Agree with the rest, but that rather not, not in the LBA any more at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Ye.It seems a very weird scenario for what exactly happened during the Bronze Age Collapse and with the Greek Dark Ages.It is very likely that people from the north.... you can call them as you want(Dorians,Sea People,Illyrians or whatever) to kicked out big amounts of native lineages-markers,thus mainland Greece becoming more EV13.And these lineages that left mainland went to islands,cyprus,anatolia etc.What it makes me wonder is why they did not brought a different dialect with them,instead we have 3 new dialects taking place in Greece and all of them belong to Greek.I think a similar senario took place in Albania.Most of the neolithic lineages kicked out and EV13 dominance for the most part.I see J2b as an important lineage as well,R1b inclunding.What we can say for sure is that the Greek and Illyrian ethnogenesis are a combination of people before the LBA collapse and the people who are responsible for it.In terms of autosomal DNA i do not expect huge diffrences between Epirotes,northern Greeks,Thracians and the Illyrian tribes of south Albania at least.I think they would have been very close to each other.Some diffrences maybe between the steppe/CHG/Iran N ratios.But mostly EEF.
    The funny thing is that i am expecting some E-L618 Neolithic survivors from South Albania/Epirus/North Greece that went extinct during that period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The funny thing is that i am expecting some E-L618 Neolithic survivors from South Albania/Epirus/North Greece that went extinct during that period.
    I think so.Many neolithic lineages must had survived until some time.Even now some Greeks have G2a lineages that i am very sure have to do with the neolithic expansion from anatolia.For Albanians the trinity of EV13,J2b and R1b is maybe an a good example of how Illyrians/Albani/Dardani, of western balkans would have been like.But ofc we need samples.Without samples you cannot be sure for anything.I think its awful that we lack samples from western balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Agree with the rest, but that rather not, not in the LBA any more at least.
    Etruscan "Pelasgians" (which is an umbrella term denoting non-Greeks) were on Limnos island, 2 out of 3 results from there are Neolithic G2a clades. Real Peleset, real term, or the Philistines were IE speaking looking at their names. And R-M269 was found in them.

    This culture Hawk speaks of on Serbian-Romanian border had W.Hungarian origins in MBA/EBA and results of its cousin cultures show no E-V13. And they won't show any in the future. Maybe some V13 did migrate with them but V13 does not originate in this culture, more precisely it has nothing to do with this culture and its origins. The lack of any discernable Etruscan V13 clade is also a testament to this.

    One of these Greeks from Limnos is a rare G-L497 clade and he might show a clear linguistic link with the Rhaeto-Etruscan.

    Besides I believe it is by no means determined that Dalmatian Neolithic E-L618 people ever spoke an Etruscan like tongue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    For Albanians the trinity of EV13,J2b and R1b is maybe an a good example of how Illyrians/Albani/Dardani, of western balkans would have been like.
    For those who support Illyrian origin theory, you are right.
    But for us who are more in favor of Daco-Thracian theory, your statement is not precise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    For those who support Illyrian origin theory, you are right.
    But for us who are more in favor of Daco-Thracian theory, your statement is not precise.
    That is why i am saying that we need samples.And i will insist that ethnic Groups/Tribes/Clans do not forming with only 1 marker/lineage.Definitely with 2 or even 3.Second you need to undestand the origins of the paleo-balkan dialects.Do they have an eastern or a western source of origins?The fist Greek speaking dialect(that of Mycenaeans/Achaeans) have its origins from somewhere from modern Ukraine/Moldova.When it comes to paleo-balkan dialects that is something that i don't know and i can't answer..and i am pretty sure most people here cannot give a proper answer.Especially the Albanian dialect is very hard to classified somewhere and we have not ended up somewhere.It is an Illyrian dialect?A Thracian?A Dardanian?Or a mix of these?We need to found out if the paleo-balkan dialects arrived from the west or the east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    First of all you have to learn and understand that ethnic groups/tribes/clans are not forming with only one yDNA marker/lineage.Even Illyrians/Thracians/Dardanians and Greeks would have been a mix of different lineages/clades.If EV13 took place during the LBA/EIA then it come in contact with native lineages like J2a,G2a maybe H,I2,R1b etc.EV13 in Greece is indeed highly coming from Arvanites,Vlachs,Slavs no1s doubt about it but.But EV13 peaks even in parts/regions were these people did not inhabit/settled.Witch means it has been there from before.But besides that,you will need deeper testing to check the clades.And also keep in mind Arvanites/Sioulotes did not brought only EV13 but also lineages like J2b,I2din and some weird I1 as we have seen lately with the Kolokotronis ancestor guy.A Germanic i would lineage.As for Epirus.It was never settled from Illyrian people.Epirus used to inhabit by Northwest Greek tribes and in the borders with Albania it was the cline between Greeks and Illyrians.You can't know what lineages these tribes used to carry without samples.
    We are missing the point on the importance of the 14 Epirote tribes , especially the Molossians and Chaonians ............the Romans already had possession of modern North Albania , the Durres area during the Hannibal wars, to basically stop the Macedonians ( Hannibal's ally ) supplying Hannibal with material and men.
    The Romans eventually called this area New Epirus and the southern one Old Epirus..............new Epirus, with its only good port of Durres in the whole region became one of the major roads for supply from Italy to Constantinople

    So, Rome never let go of it's Albanian/ New Epirus land holdings from the early stage of the Hannibal wars and eventually took more coastal Epirote lands after defeating the Macedonians in the second Macedonain war of 197BC ..............to secure this land and any thoughts of a second Epirote Pyrrhus, the Romans settled many "Rroman-Italians" there, especially the old Samnites


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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Etruscan "Pelasgians" (which is an umbrella term denoting non-Greeks) were on Limnos island, 2 out of 3 results from there are Neolithic G2a clades. Real Peleset, real term, or the Philistines were IE speaking looking at their names. And R-M269 was found in them.

    This culture Hawk speaks of on Serbian-Romanian border had W.Hungarian origins in MBA/EBA and results of its cousin cultures show no E-V13. And they won't show any in the future. Maybe some V13 did migrate with them but V13 does not originate in this culture, more precisely it has nothing to do with this culture and its origins. The lack of any discernable Etruscan V13 clade is also a testament to this.

    One of these Greeks from Limnos is a rare G-L497 clade and he might show a clear linguistic link with the Rhaeto-Etruscan.

    Besides I believe it is by no means determined that Dalmatian Neolithic E-L618 people ever spoke an Etruscan like tongue.
    Your comparisons are very superficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    PF7563 has the largest % among albanians compare to other countries and the largest diversity compare to other countries. this is even more obvious if you consider the small geographical area of albanian populated areas compare to others countries. in west balkans is present from south albania up to Bosnia. I have not seen it further up in north west balkans and the presence in greece, seems related to Arvanitas migration to greece during middle ages (based on the current tests).
    the presence in italy is in the lower half of the peninsula and seems to be migration from the west balkans to italian peninsula around middle to late bronze age. some of it has also moved to anatolia/levant area around the same period. I will not speculate on the language or its role in "ethnic" formation but this is clearly the earliest indoeuropean haplo in the albanian population with the oldest diversity of clades among albanians as well as distance of these clades with other countries.
    Well i did not know it was more frequent in albanians than their neighhours - that changes things but it still doesnt explain the lack of numbers amongst albanians today. If these lines were frequent 2 thousand years ago a lot of men carrying these must have died or came together with other groups - is it possible pf7563 belongs to a southern illyrian tribe? As far as I know illyrians were not all the same people, some had slightly different cultures. Could also be a pre illyrian people who lived in southern balkans which is why i mentioned greeks, who are other candidates?

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