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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrenjet. View Post
    It should be noted also that this Albanian is matching a person of Vlach ancestry (different surname) from SE Albania at 9/37, including a couple of double differences. Their MRCA must have lived much earlier than the 14th century, so current results do not support that theory.
    9 of 37 is a very large distance. They might not even be from a same clade downstream of CTS9320 unless there are peculiar slow mutating markers they share which might be characteristic of this BY4526 although I don't know much about this clade tbh.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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     Riverman (02-22-2021)

  3. #822
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    E-V13 this is Calabria haplogroup. Prove me wrong.
    Distance: 2.0965% / 0.02096464
    46.0 EST_BA
    38.0 Albanian
    4.6 Tajik_Ishkashim
    4.6 Tibetan_Xunhua
    3.6 Fulani
    1.0 Avar
    1.0 Ethiopian_Ari
    0.6 Mbuti
    0.4 Saudi
    0.2 Tlingit

  4. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsap View Post
    E-V13 this is Calabria haplogroup. Prove me wrong.
    Prove you right?

    If you write a bold statement like that, you should back it up with arguments.
    Last edited by rafc; 02-22-2021 at 07:48 PM.

  5. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    9 of 37 is a very large distance. They might not even be from a same clade downstream of CTS9320 unless there are peculiar slow mutating markers they share which might be characteristic of this BY4526 although I don't know much about this clade tbh.
    He has been tested BY4526+, A10953-. They share a few values but as I said there are plenty of differences. They either form an old cluster or belong to two related subclades, this further increasing Albanian and Balkan diversity. Either way, there is no support for the Late Medieval idea with the data we have.

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     Aspar (02-22-2021),  BukeKrypEZemer (02-22-2021)

  7. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrenjet. View Post
    He has been tested BY4526+, A10953-. They share a few values but as I said there are plenty of differences. They either form an old cluster or belong to two related subclades, this further increasing Albanian and Balkan diversity. Either way, there is no support for the Late Medieval idea with the data we have.
    Thx, interesting to know.
    Of course you are right, most of the E-V13 clades in the Balkans do not look like Medieval arrivals. I haven't seen even one Balkan E-V13 clade that shares antiquity or medieval TMRCA with other non-Balkan samples. As E-V13 is a broad group I will take it's downstream clade E-CTS9320 as an example. It's clear that parallells to the Balkan clades downstream of CTS9320 can be found in Hungary, Ukraine, Austria, Poland, etc. The middle point between the Balkan and these non-Balkan clades is Hungary or ancient Pannonia. This might point to an expansion of CTS9320 and various downstream clades from an area around the Carpathians and ancient Pannonia. However none of these non-Balkan clades shares TMRCA with the Balkan clades around the antiquity and the medieval as I said earlier. The TMRCA is mostly around EIA consistent with TMRCA of CTS9320. And even when the MRCA is at a later date, for example late IA as with E-Z38456, this can be explained by the Celtic invasion of the Balkans during the 3rd century BC and the subsequent withdrawal of some Celtic groups back to their home who might have taken some prisoner's of war or other Balkan people who have joined their ranks. That's clear because the diversity downstream of Z17107 is overwhelmingly on the territory between Hungary and Greece.

    Although I'm a little reluctant to make assumptions based on modern samples diversity. A clear example is this clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/
    If we didn't have this medieval Hungarian sample we would have drawn conclusions that the German clade has an older presence in Germany because they lack modern matches. Yet, the ancient sample clearly points to an origin in Pannonia because FGC11450 as a whole looks like a proper Balkan clade. Probably a local who joined the ranks of some Germanic tribe or perhaps spread to Germany with the Slavs who would have assimilated it somewhere around Pannonia.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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     Hawk (02-22-2021)

  9. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Could you post those here or send them to me by PM? I would be very interested!
    Well most of Greeks are in the opening post. There are some other new results I also mentioned.

    I won't post Romanians here. Did you post your V13 paper on an internet forum first? Many of their results are from FTDNA, just I was able to predict what subclade they belong to. On M35 project you have some people wrongly classified. Kit N52775 is most definitely not FGC11450 but A2192 (dys447, dys19)..

  10. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    From the available archaeological material on internet there is absolutely no relationship between Cetina and Glina III Schneckenberg. Cetina seems to be amalgam of the previous cultures in the region such as Vucedol and incoming Bell Beaker groups. Glina III Schneckenberg on the other hand developed on the basis of Gumelnitsa and was influenced by Cernavoda and Foltesti.
    The only similarity seems to be the burial rite, cist graves surrounded by stone slabs under tumuli although there aren't many graves from Glina III Schneckenberg found. The 'small' problem however is that this kind of burial was very widespread in the EBA and it's not restricted to Schneckenberg only so doesn't have to indicate Schneckenberg influence on Cetina.
    On the other hand, it does seem likely that E-BY14151 or it's ancestor were born around the Carpathians and an earlier migration towards the Western Balkans contributed to it's diversity there. However E-BY14151's age and the aforementioned archaeological context makes me believe that this earlier migration didn't effect Cetina but rather it's ancestor the Vucedol Culture. When it comes to Vucedol, there certainly seem to be observed a migration of Steppe pastoralists, coming from direction of the Carpathians. The single most greatest influence these pastoralists brought was the burial under tumuli. In the last phase of Vucedol a new phenomenon is observed, a central cremation burial under tumuli. These kind of burials appear at the eastern most sphere of the Vucedol Culture, in Batajnica and Vojka in Serbia and Moldova Veche in Romania.
    You should read more than wikipedia articles. There is no evidence Vučedol has relation to Cetina. There is no evidence Vučedol population of any sort was present in Cetina areas at any time. This is some 50 year old stuff about Cetina-Vučedol..

    There are some parallels with Glina, or more precisely Schneckenberg in other aspects. This burial wasn't that widespread.

    Bell Beaker had influence on Cetina, though according to anthropological material there is no BB influence.

    The crucial element in its formation was the Adriatic type Ljubljana culture. BB and also "Ezero". This Adriatic Ljubljana culture was some fusion of local Cardials with some 100 % Yamnaya people. Most likely unrelated to most common Balkan Z2103 whose close relative was found in Mokrin. It seems this Yamnaya element has clear Transylvanian, and also indirectly again Schneckenberg links. "Ezero" links also seem to point to the same.

    You seem to follow this pattern, Greeks = bad => Greeks Yamnaya related => Yamnaya bad => V13 can't have anything to do with Yamnaya...

    Currently even Corded Ware is being derived from Yamnaya, all non-Anatolian IE is Yamnaya derived in some way..

  11. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I looked at evidence again, the Steppe element was atributed to pit-grave but some say in general it wasn't related to Yamnaya.
    Well again like I did a year ago, some old views mentioned "Ezero" but the newest views of Steppe element in Ljubljana say surely Yamnaya derived. But interestingly sporting the Corded Ware pottery. As this Yamnaya element is very old, its probably more related to the likes of R-KMS67 than R-CTS11450.

    I think it is extremely unlikely V13 is anything other that this Cardial surviving element fusing with these incomers. And only centuries later was Cetina culture formed. Evidence of some EEF's surviving and coexisting with Steppe people is rare or non-existent.

    It seems there was some network of related Yamnaya derived peoples roaming around W.Balkan, Bulgaria, Transylvania.. I think this fits into V13 initial spread. Their Corded pottery is interesting, maybe this is some ancient Thracian link with CWC..

    Besides, as I've said before the Cardial Neolithic people were somewhat different especially culturally. For them worshipping skulls was the most important thing, and there is some evidence it continued in Cetina culture even. A tell sign E1b1b was there (Natufians, IM's).. Some archeologists mentioned also some Maasai like burial practices. One could imagine these creeps managed to accomplish what other EEF's failed.
    Last edited by Huban; 02-23-2021 at 03:29 AM.

  12. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I haven't seen even one Balkan E-V13 clade that shares antiquity or medieval TMRCA with other non-Balkan samples.
    There are plenty of those. I know of 15-20 clades at least, just most of them haven't done BigY. But even so there are some with BigY. You focus too much on YFull's tree.

    Especially can these close links be monitored in Romania/Moldova.

  13. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrenjet. View Post
    He has been tested BY4526+, A10953-. They share a few values but as I said there are plenty of differences. They either form an old cluster or belong to two related subclades, this further increasing Albanian and Balkan diversity. Either way, there is no support for the Late Medieval idea with the data we have.
    Well the BY4526+ guy said they looked "close", and I said that can only be possible if they are close. But obviously they are not, as expected. Even Hungarian in that cluster is probably of Ruthenian or the like origin.

    There is considerable diversity of CTS9320 especially in Southern Albania. Even some people from the North seem to descend from S.Albania. For example Bjelopavlici tribe. Also Kelmendi have a Vlach relative from the South. Ah even E-BY4459 which is also very common in Tosks. Of Dibrri Elsie said they were "mixed with Tosks". E-FT12534 also. YF80631 also must be a Tosk?

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