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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    So while the Italics had more of Chalcolithic Italian and Bell Beaker ancestry in addition of a minor proto-Villanovan, the Etruscans were overwhelmingly derived from proto-Villanovans and very little Bell Beaker and Italian Chalcolithic. While proto-Villanovan clearly had western Balkan origin according to Davidski's model.
    Leave aside this, J-L283 was found in both HRV_MBA and in an Etruscan. Also among some Nuragics in Sardinia. Both the Etruscans and the Nuragics were non Indo-European speakers.
    This trail makes me think that J-L283 spread across Europe from the Western Balkans and can be much better associated with the western Balkans than E-V13!
    The problem is J-L283 was found in a neighbor culture to Cetina. According to all authorities people of these two had completely different origins, unrelated to each other. Therefore Cetina wasn't J-L283. But as Cetina culture waned its remnants were assimilated by the J-L283.

    More basal J-L283 was found in Mokrin, Maros culture, so it must have expanded from there around 1900 BC (Early Dinara/Posušje culture), at the time when Cetina had already reached its peak.. There are some clear archeological links of Dinaric culture with Mokrin actually.

    I mean I told you already on Eupedia, J-L283 was not Cetina, you even claimed I made this up, I showed you exact evidence from the J-L283 find that it is Posušje/Dinara culture and not Cetina culture. At the time of this find Cetina culture no longer existed..

    Also I do not claim E-V13 expanded from the West. I claim it just started out in the West..

    Regarding these links with the Villanovan culture. Those Balkan links are rather Western Pannonian, not Dalmatian, for example Girla Mare culture in Romania were the migrants from Western Pannonia so some proto-Etruscans might have been there.

    We already know from aDNA E-V13 was very weak/non-existent in W.Pannonia or in Pannonia as a whole..

  2. #842
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    Archeologist Aleksandar Bulatović's map. 3rd horizon of the Corded Ware finds in the Balkans, second half of 3rd, and beginning of the 2nd millennium BC.



    This is the E-V13 connection. Same ware was also very present in Jigodin (Schneckenberg B ) variant of Glina III Schneckenberg. You can see in the Western part, it matches the sites of Adriatic variant of Ljubljana culture and early Cetina culture.

    Number 19 is Lerna, where Cetina pottery was found, where an invasion from Adriatic caused destruction of the House of the Tiles.
    D is Laukada in Greece, known R-graves. B is known site of Piskove in Albania.

    This is what Cetina people were politically part of, the Eastern horizon.

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Archeologist Aleksandar Bulatović's map. 3rd horizon of the Corded Ware finds in the Balkans, second half of 3rd, and beginning of the 2nd millennium BC.

    This is the E-V13 connection. Same ware was also very present in Jigodin (Schneckenberg B ) variant of Glina III Schneckenberg. You can see in the Western part, it matches the sites of Adriatic variant of Ljubljana culture and early Cetina culture.

    Number 19 is Lerna, where Cetina pottery was found, where an invasion from Adriatic caused destruction of the House of the Tiles.
    D is Laukada in Greece, known R-graves. B is known site of Piskove in Albania.

    This is what Cetina people were politically part of, the Eastern horizon.
    This seems very late to be still speaking of Corded Ware. As far as I know CW is from early 3rd millennium BC. Also, finding a Corded Ware shard just means some of the pottery travelled a long way as prestige goods, not that CW-people moved. For that you should look at burial customs and grave goods. Are those finds you show just shards, or are they something more than that?

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     peloponnesian (02-23-2021)

  5. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    You can say when someone is very close (in 500-1000 range) even on short haplotypes, if the clade has various unusual values ofc. The problem is for some conclusions to be drawn, people from the entire region must be well profiled and they are not. The only way to fix this is to correctly classify various FTDNA people and those from studies, or otherwise wait for years. Still majority from the studies cannot be classified. The problem with the Romanian project is that Romanians do not have that many emigrants to USA/West. Actually most of Hungarian CTS9320 results are Americans with Hungarian roots.

    Of course studies can be useful. You are alone with a Greek at FTDNA, but we know you closely match many Aromanians from 2006 study. Not only that they match two of your important mutations 385b and 389b, these two at least have the age of the TMRCA between you and Greek.

    An example of people who did BigY
    E-L241>BY5650 A Serb,
    E-L241>BY5650>BY125229 Bulgarian and Hungarian sharing 4 more SNP's

    This clade has lower TMRCA, Medieval range, and obviously here the Hungarian seems to be migrant from the South.




    Majority of them are definitely migrants from the South. For a minority a good case for the opposite can be made. But majority (of those with close Balkan links ofc) seem to fall in clusters that do seem Balkan in origin.
    Tbh, I don't give much of an importance to STRs, I advise the people to test Big Y straight away or buy an SNP pack. STRs can be confusing quite a lot especially with back mutations and convergence.
    You've mentioned my matches and the markers 385b and 389b. These are not slow mutating markers. In fact I match some Englishmen 12/12, 23/25 and these are completely different clade S7461. There is a Serb or Montenegrin guy I match, 11/12 and he is also completely different clade than mine. I also match 12/12 a Hungarian guy downstream of E-Z17107. As you can see, a complete waste of time to give too much of an importance. SNP testing can only tell the difference. Maybe 67 STRs are good enough to make a prediction but 12 or 17 markers which are complete waste of time.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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     Riverman (02-23-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    This seems very late to be still speaking of Corded Ware. As far as I know CW is from early 3rd millennium BC. Also, finding a Corded Ware shard just means some of the pottery travelled a long way as prestige goods, not that CW-people moved. For that you should look at burial customs and grave goods. Are those finds you show just shards, or are they something more than that?
    As far as I know the Steppe tumuli of Ljeskova Glavica (A) (actually part of Cetina), Piskove (B ), Laukada (D) are supposed to be related in terms of their features.

    We can add the Steppe Pazhok tumulii from Albania whose decorational motifs have closest parallels in Jigodin Schneckenberg.

    This Corded Ware may not have anything to do with the CWC proper. As similar Ware was found earlier in Ezero horizon, and even earlier. Some have argued Steppe origin, others origin in some local traditions (Baden etc.). Although they may end up being related to CWC.

    Gimbutas considered both Glina III Schneckenberg and Leukada R-graves to belong to Kurgan Wave 2 (as opposed to her Yamnaya Wave 3), that is more related to Ezero and proto-Anatolians.

    Some have considered this burial ritual with slab cist graves to be Maikop related (again Wave 2 for Gimbutas).

    Examples of this Corded Ware from Schneckenberg culture, Ariușd.


    Newer paper on Yamnaya

    https://www.academia.edu/2230109/Imm...ts_of_a_kurgan

    The metal objects found in grave nos. 4 and 7 have much wider connections. The best
    comparisons for the precious-metal Lockenringe are from a handful of graves in western
    Yamnaya kurgans, such as from Goran-Slatina in Bulgaria
    (Dani 2011: 32). Related to
    these, and probably sharing the same hair fashion, are the gold/electrum Leukas and Mala
    Gruda type hair-rings known from some of the most lavishly equipped graves of the Balkans
    ,
    but also from the Livezile site of Ampoit¸a in Transylvania (Dani 2011: 32.). The Manyc-ˇ
    type dagger from grave 7 has a clear Pontic steppe background in both Yamnaya and
    Katakombnaya assemblages (Zimmermann 2003).
    Mala Gruda is a major Adriatic Ljubljana find.

    If one is to go after this then Mala Gruda, Leukada Steppe people might descend of Apuseni mountain Yamnaya group. Again in terms of origin these are being connected to Schneckenberg (local base + Schenckenberg i.e. Schenckenberg is Yamnaya).
    Last edited by Huban; 02-23-2021 at 03:42 PM.

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     Riverman (02-23-2021)

  9. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Tbh, I don't give much of an importance to STRs, I advise the people to test Big Y straight away or buy an SNP pack. STRs can be confusing quite a lot especially with back mutations and convergence.
    You've mentioned my matches and the markers 385b and 389b. These are not slow mutating markers. In fact I match some Englishmen 12/12, 23/25 and these are completely different clade S7461. There is a Serb or Montenegrin guy I match, 11/12 and he is also completely different clade than mine. I also match 12/12 a Hungarian guy downstream of E-Z17107. As you can see, a complete waste of time to give too much of an importance. SNP testing can only tell the difference. Maybe 67 STRs are good enough to make a prediction but 12 or 17 markers which are complete waste of time.
    I can just confirm what you are saying. I have STR-higher matches which are totally different clades from different geographical regions and some which have a worse fit with a larger STR-distance, but are still the closest I got so far based on reliable SNP-tests. STR's are beyond the immediately relevant genealogical horizon worthless. And with E-V13 we usually deal with a distance larger than 1.000 years in all major clades distributed throughout Europe. So STR's don't help, unless they can be used to predict an assignment correctly. But the distances are totally worthless.

    @Huban: I thought about Glina-Schneckenburg too originally, but the timing is the issue here too. Like when did it spread to the crucial Daco-Thracian sphere in your opinion and why wasn't it found so far in the available record from the Balkans and Pannonia?

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     Aspar (02-23-2021)

  11. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    As far as I know the Steppe tumuli of Ljeskova Glavica (A) (actually part of Cetina), Piskove (B ), Laukada (D) are supposed to be related in terms of their features.

    We can add the Steppe Pazhok tumulii from Albania whose decorational motifs have closest parallels in Jigodin Schneckenberg.

    This Corded Ware may not have anything to do with the CWC proper. As similar Ware was found earlier in Ezero horizon, and even earlier. Some have argued Steppe origin, others origin in some local traditions (Baden etc.). Although they may end up being related to CWC.

    Gimbutas considered both Glina III Schneckenberg and Leukada R-graves to belong to Kurgan Wave 2 (as opposed to her Yamnaya Wave 3), that is more related to Ezero and proto-Anatolians.

    Some have considered this burial ritual with slab cist graves to be Maikop related (again Wave 2 for Gimbutas).

    Examples of this Corded Ware from Schneckenberg culture, Ariușd.


    Newer paper on Yamnaya

    https://www.academia.edu/2230109/Imm...ts_of_a_kurgan


    Mala Gruda is a major Adriatic Ljubljana find.

    If one is to go after this then Mala Gruda, Leukada Steppe people might descend of Apuseni mountain Yamnaya group. Again in terms of origin these are being connected to Schneckenberg (local base + Schenckenberg i.e. Schenckenberg is Yamnaya).
    For Mala gruda I agree that a direct Yamnaya origing is likely, it fits in the Yamnaya burials found in the Balkans in 3000-2700BC. For the Lefkandi burials I don't think Yamnaya origins have been suggested. Your link to Schneckenberg escapes me, you believe that was a Yamnaya group?

  12. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Tbh, I don't give much of an importance to STRs, I advise the people to test Big Y straight away or buy an SNP pack. STRs can be confusing quite a lot especially with back mutations and convergence.
    You've mentioned my matches and the markers 385b and 389b. These are not slow mutating markers. In fact I match some Englishmen 12/12, 23/25 and these are completely different clade S7461. There is a Serb or Montenegrin guy I match, 11/12 and he is also completely different clade than mine.
    That is "ideal" that people order the BigY. How are you going to ensure more Romanians or Greeks order? So we have to make with what we have. Recently a Jew from Romania ordered Y111 (and BigY it seems). With his Y111 I was able to say that he is 100 % related to 4 Basarabi from Basarab paper. And he is also related to another Romanian at FTDNA who has Y67. And I am able to say where they are even before BigY is complete. Y12 at FTDNA is bad, but some of those extra STR's can be useful (Yfiler, Power plex). If a clade is defined by those STR's and they are present even in a short haplotype then it's clear.

    All SNP's are reflected in STR's somewhere and there are clades actually defined by STR's where their SNP has not been yet discovered.
    E-Z16988>DYS531=11
    I-PH908>DYS561=16

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    As you can see, a complete waste of time to give too much of an importance. SNP testing can only tell the difference. Maybe 67 STRs are good enough to make a prediction but 12 or 17 markers which are complete waste of time.
    Depends on a clade and context.

    When you have a E-V13 short haplotype like this, any talk about STR's is useless because it is modal
    13 24 13 10 16-18 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 11 17 10 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I also match 12/12 a Hungarian guy downstream of E-Z17107.
    You mean downstream of E-S19928?
    Last edited by Huban; 02-23-2021 at 04:12 PM.

  13. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    @Huban: I thought about Glina-Schneckenburg too originally, but the timing is the issue here too. Like when did it spread to the crucial Daco-Thracian sphere in your opinion and why wasn't it found so far in the available record from the Balkans and Pannonia?
    I think if this Corded Ware has a relation to CWC, this "might" be some distant linguistic link of Thracian with the Baltic, Germanic as it was proposed. If the Thracian group is old. If it is young then Thracian would have to be a dialect of Baltic, and I don't think that fits.

    There are hardly any aDNA finds from Romania, and Glina III Schneckenberg is from there.. Those Moldavian Scythians are actually not even from the territory of Moldova but Transnistria, and Thraco-Cimmerian from Dobruja is from Ukraine.

    Pannonia has a number of finds and no E-V13. Well because I think E-V13 will be find to the East of Pannonia in EBA. Pannonia was not such a crucial part of the Daco-Thracian sphere, though Dacians were in the Eastern part.

  14. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    For Mala gruda I agree that a direct Yamnaya origing is likely, it fits in the Yamnaya burials found in the Balkans in 3000-2700BC. For the Lefkandi burials I don't think Yamnaya origins have been suggested. Your link to Schneckenberg escapes me, you believe that was a Yamnaya group?
    I think it may have been a Yamnaya group, or even Maykop or even something else (Ezero, Cernavoda related). The views are very conflicting about Schneckenberg.

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