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Thread: E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions

  1. #851
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    @Aspar 385 and 389 are not that fast, they do define plenty of subclades. They aren't the slowest but I wouldn't call them fastest either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    I think it may have been a Yamnaya group, or even Maykop or even something else (Ezero, Cernavoda related). The views are very conflicting about Schneckenberg.
    Any intel out there re: samples from Mala Gruda being tested? I recently came across a blog post that made it sound like they were currently testing samples or waiting to test samples. Sounds like a very important site!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Any intel out there re: samples from Mala Gruda being tested? I recently came across a blog post that made it sound like they were currently testing samples or waiting to test samples. Sounds like a very important site!
    That would be very interesting, haven't seen that. Mala Gruda is Ljubljana proper culture find, there are some related finds in Shkoder area. Before Mokrin finds I thought maybe L283 could be found there.

    The use of stone coverings in the tumuli of the Apuseni Mountains,17 but mainly the total absence
    of pit-graves shows however a strong native component in the burial customs. This native component is
    linked with the development of local elite, which used copper and gold ornaments, and controlled the
    rich mineral resources of the area. In the Balkan–Carpathian area there are several extremely rich graves
    associated with tumuli with stone coverings and/or slab-cists graves that may be linked with the emerging
    EBA local elite. This group includes first of all the ‘Princely’ tumuli from Mala Gruda (Parović-Pesikan–
    Trbuhović 1974), Velika Gruda (Primas 1996), Gruda Boljevica (Baković–Govedarica 2009) and
    Nin–Privlaka (Govedarica 1989, 113, map 5 and pl. 26/1–3, 8–10), all of them located along the Eastern
    Adriatic seashore (Pl. 13/1–5; 12–28). In spite of less spectacular funeral inventory, some other finds such
    as grave 1 / tumulus III at Ampoiţa–Peret (Ciugudean 1991, 85, fig. 20/1–6), grave 7–7a in the tumulus from Sárrétudvari–Őrhalom (Dani–Nepper 2006, 33–35, fig. 5), one possible grave from Balkány
    (Kulcsár 2009, 168) and the central grave in the tumulus at Neusiedl am See (Ruttkay 2002, 145–149,
    fig. 4) might be included in the same group. Part of their grave-goods was recently included in the so called ‘Yamnaya package’ (Harrison–Heyd 2007, 197, fig. 48) but this interpretation is disputable. First of all, the gold hair-rings belong to different types (Leukas and Mala Gruda, according to Primas 2006 76–86) of Balkan–Aegean origin,18 without any parallels in the Yamnaya Pit-Graves inventory.19
    https://www.academia.edu/21581506/BR..._BASIN_Content

    I quoted earlier other paper connecting Mala Gruda with the Apuseni group via gold hair-rings, here it is denied those grave goods are Yamnaya.

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  6. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    @Aspar 385 and 389 are not that fast, they do define plenty of subclades. They aren't the slowest but I wouldn't call them fastest either.
    As I said, these markers aren't slow markers and so, you can't be for sure with them. I suspect you got it wrong on many clades. I've given example how I match several people of different clades on those exact markers. With some of those English matches I'm 29/37 and 7 of these mismatches are fast markers. Only one is a medium-fast(Y-GATA-H4) and this marker has similar mutation rate with 385a and b. Yes you are right about the Hungarian that's the clade.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  7. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I suspect you got it wrong on many clades.
    If I get one wrong I will get 9 right..

    But no, all of my calls for Romanian haplotypes who haven't done SNP testing are 99-100 % correct, in handful of cases they are in 70-80 % range, and I'd specify them. It's not that I am limited to E-V13. Most of you study your own hg, or some hg important for your ethnicity, you can't swim elsewhere. I did analysis of all Romanian hg's for subclades.

    I learned that matches are not of much relevance unless they are quite close. Neither is the speed of STR's of such importance. There is clear evidence that in some hg's nominally slow STR's mutate much faster and vice versa, fast STR's are stable. What matters if knowledge about which STR's define level A, which STR's define level A.1., level A.1.1, level A1.1.1., A.1.1.1.1. ... There are many haplotypes in various haplogroups matching certain clades very well but when you look better they don't have defining STR's for the level above. These are false matches. Also some clades have extremely distinct profile, and in such cases there is a high chance a short haplotype cannot be anything else.

    If a haplotype is lucky to have STR's in YFiler you can even predict based on YFiler, some are not that lucky even at Y111.

    You also match Wright brothers on Y12. For matches crucial is to focus on STR's that define your branch with the Greek and ofc these STR's should not be modal. Those are 385b, 389b, but also 449, 570, CDYa, 568, 487, 511. So your matches should match on most of these to be viable matches.
    Last edited by Huban; 02-23-2021 at 08:30 PM.

  8. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I was and still am on the conclusion that TMRCA was around and close to the Carpathians before it joined the ranks of some highly mobile groups. From there it spread all over Europe and the West Balkan as well.
    I believe the West Balkans and Cetina at that were the home of groups rich in J-L283 and R1b. Of course, there were other haplogroups there very likely such as G2a and even E-L618 however I don't thin this is relevant for the MRCA in EBA.
    In fact, from the above materials on Cetina it's evident that the pre-Indo-European element survived better in the Western Balkans. In that regard I have some open suspicions that the Etruscan language has been spoken in the Western Balkans before Etruscan speaking people migrated to Italy. Archaeologically the Etruscans can be linked to proto-Villanovan culture and the proto-Villanovan Culture in turn had some clear Balkan elements in it. Furthermore check these models from Eurogenes blog:


    So while the Italics had more of Chalcolithic Italian and Bell Beaker ancestry in addition of a minor proto-Villanovan, the Etruscans were overwhelmingly derived from proto-Villanovans and very little Bell Beaker and Italian Chalcolithic. While proto-Villanovan clearly had western Balkan origin according to Davidski's model.
    Leave aside this, J-L283 was found in both HRV_MBA and in an Etruscan. Also among some Nuragics in Sardinia. Both the Etruscans and the Nuragics were non Indo-European speakers.
    This trail makes me think that J-L283 spread across Europe from the Western Balkans and can be much better associated with the western Balkans than E-V13!
    I presume your mention of the female ....is sample R1 being ITA_Proto-Villanovan circa 900BC .........................she was born in Nin ( Liburnian lands , modern Croatia ) and died in Picene lands ( Liburnian colony , modern Marche region Italy)


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  9. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    You also match Wright brothers on Y12. For matches crucial is to focus on STR's that define your branch with the Greek and ofc these STR's should not be modal. Those are 385b, 389b, but also 449, 570, CDYa, 568, 487, 511. So your matches should match on most of these to be viable matches.
    Sure but in order to know the number of alleles on some of these markers you have to test 67 STR markers FTDNA order. And many of the publications barely have 12 markers and on top of that, the markers you've mentioned as important for definition of my clade would hardly be tested. So, yhrd would be of no use for me but somehow you are telling me that it will be for the other clades?

    Ok, leave aside that, here is a sample in the database, can be found in the project Rafc is administrator. Matching me on 385b, 389ii, 449, 570, CDYa. He is tested on 37 STR markers only so unfortunately no value known for 568, 487, 511. He is 31/37 with me, however has three mismatches on some medium-fast markers such as 385a(14) and 389i(12). The rest are fast markers. Mind you, the Englishman although 29/37 with me has only one mismatch on a medium-fast marker(Y-GATA-H4) which is still faster than 389i.

    What is your conclusion in this case?
    Last edited by Aspar; 02-23-2021 at 09:14 PM.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I presume your mention of the female ....is sample R1 being ITA_Proto-Villanovan circa 900BC .........................she was born in Nin ( Liburnian lands , modern Croatia ) and died in Picene lands ( Liburnian colony , modern Marche region Italy)
    How do you know she was born there?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

  11. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    How do you know she was born there?
    A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:

    Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.
    The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and the sample is quite close to the Venetic-related Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.

    Italian Historians always state that Picene lands where Liburnian colonies

    I can link Italian studies, if you can read italian


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  13. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Sure but in order to know the number of alleles on some of these markers you have to test 67 STR markers FTDNA order. And many of the publications barely have 12 markers and on top of that, the markers you've mentioned as important for definition of my clade would hardly be tested. So, yhrd would be of no use for me but somehow you are telling me that it will be for the other clades?
    Actually most publications have at least 17 STR's. 12 is what FTDNA used to offer as cheapest test, but no more, now Y37 is minimum. And most common in studies was YFiler with 17 STR's, 10 of those are same as in Y12, others selected there were selected for a reason, as having too many very slow STRs is not useful. You have older studies with plenty of those that are useless as most don't mutate there. Newer studies use Power Plex Y23, or Yfiler plus with 27 STR's. There are some higher res studies with around 40 STR's. One of these has samples of Asia Minor Greeks. And again there some Arvanites are seen among the V13.

    those Aromanians from Dukasi and Stip all sport 385b=19 + 389b=16 (one has 11-27 so 11-16), and those from Stip are from the same country. So that makes them alot more likely to be also E-Y16729.

    Btw I found in an Ottoman defter that Moskopole/Voskopoje was a very large village already in 16th century so its clear Aromanians were majority there already then. Their names were Greek, also Albanian, there were some unique Latin names. Of specific ones for ex. Nusho (Branislav Nusic, same root).

    Wikipedia's quote "It was a small settlement until the end of the 17th century" is not true. It was larger than most even in 16th century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Ok, leave aside that, here is a sample in the database, can be found in the project Rafc is administrator. Matching me on 385b, 389ii, 449, 570, CDYa. He is tested on 37 STR markers only so unfortunately no value known for 568, 487, 511. He is 31/37 with me, however has three mismatches on some medium-fast markers such as 385a(14) and 389i(12). The rest are fast markers. Mind you, the Englishman although 29/37 with me has only one mismatch on a medium-fast marker(Y-GATA-H4) which is still faster than 389i.

    What is your conclusion in this case?
    if he has dys389=12-29, and you have 13-29, that's a double mismatch. 389b is actually 389b - 389a, so actual 389b of yours is 16 and that is one of defining values for you, he has just usual 17. Some other values u describe point to E-BY95428 385a=14 and (if) H4=10. There is this cluster in French and Spain (not at Yfull).

    So he must have 12-28 to match you at 389b.

    If he doesn't match you on 389b thats a problem, he may still end up being distantly related (not likely).

    389 and 385 are actually faster than other Y37 STR's that define your cluster, and in Y38-Y67 you also have 446 that defines you. I guess Y38-Y67 is more interesting for you as there you have plenty of slow STR's that define your cluster.
    Last edited by Huban; 02-24-2021 at 12:54 AM. Reason: addition

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