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Thread: Do L23xL51 clades in SW Asia - do they link closest to the Balkans or Caucasus/NW Ira

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    Do L23xL51 clades in SW Asia - do they link closest to the Balkans or Caucasus/NW Ira

    I recall comparison of STRs being used to work out that the greater similarity pointed to a clockwise route around the Caspian. Can a similar comparison be made between Anatolia and those clades in the Balkans to its west on the one hand and those clades to the east and north of Anatolia?

    Related to this is whether STR comparisons of L23XL51 is indicative of a Balkans origin or an eastern/northern oriin for this clade among Armenians. If, as looks linguistically plausible, that the Armenian speakers came from the Balkans then if it is linked to L23xL51 then they should be closer to Balkans L23xL51 than say north Caucasian, Ukraine, NW Iran (other than Armenians) people of the same clade.

    I just am surprised I have not seen this looked at because Anatolia would have to be accessed from either the Balkans, Caucasus or somewhere like Iran. Alternatively if it was born in Anatolia then patterns may imply that.

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     Joe B (12-07-2013)

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    Humanist looked at this before. I think he found in terms of STR's Armenian R1b was closest to Assyrians as well as Iranian minority groups around the Caspian. But you should ask him to be sure because I could be wrong on that.

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     Joe B (12-07-2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I recall comparison of STRs being used to work out that the greater similarity pointed to a clockwise route around the Caspian. Can a similar comparison be made between Anatolia and those clades in the Balkans to its west on the one hand and those clades to the east and north of Anatolia?

    Related to this is whether STR comparisons of L23XL51 is indicative of a Balkans origin or an eastern/northern oriin for this clade among Armenians. If, as looks linguistically plausible, that the Armenian speakers came from the Balkans then if it is linked to L23xL51 then they should be closer to Balkans L23xL51 than say north Caucasian, Ukraine, NW Iran (other than Armenians) people of the same clade.

    I just am surprised I have not seen this looked at because Anatolia would have to be accessed from either the Balkans, Caucasus or somewhere like Iran. Alternatively if it was born in Anatolia then patterns may imply that.
    I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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     Joe B (12-07-2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.
    What Iraqi samples are you referring to? The ones in the Iraq DNA Project? The Iraqi Arabs that have tested for L584 have been ancestral (Bani Saad, Al Enezi, and Al Araji Al-Husseini Al-Hashemi).

    We still do not know what subclades Alawites fall in. The same goes for a good number of Assyrians.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-07-2013 at 08:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    We know the Armenians ... are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans ....
    Not quite. There is at least one in Greece, according to Joe's map: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post6259

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Humanist looked at this before. I think he found in terms of STR's Armenian R1b was closest to Assyrians as well as Iranian minority groups around the Caspian. But you should ask him to be sure because I could be wrong on that.
    I know that I have compared them before, but I do not believe Iranian R-L23 haplotypes are particularly close to Assyrian haplotypes. Save for one, I believe, in Khuzestan. But do not quote me on that, as I do not have access to the comparison at the moment.

    From Academia. Short haplotypes, and a bit dated, but for what it is worth:

    Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia

    Yepiskoposyan et al.

    734 ethnic Armenian, 196 Kurd and 106 Assyrian men were sampled in Armenia. DNA was extracted from buccal swab and typed for six STR and 12 Unique Event Polymorphism (UEP) loci mapping to the nonrecombined portion of the human Y chromosome.

    ....

    Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Not quite. There is at least one in Greece, according to Joe's map: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post6259
    It is not clear where the L584+ from the Greek project(87265) is really from. He may have been a Greek from Anatolia. Some old forums have him in Georgia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.
    R1b-L584 looks like it is from the Armenian Highlands.
    It's interesting that R1b-CTS7822/Z2110 has not been found east or southeast of the Balkans yet. Greece has one CTS7822+ and one CTS7822+, CTS9219+. I think this is how CTS7822 fits. M269>L23>Z2103>CTS7822>CTS9219*
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-07-2013 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.
    Richard, let them think what they want. I have written tons of letter about this and I am waiting for my Chromo2 results which will be able to clear many things. Not only L23 from Middle East are derived from R-Z2105*, but L584* presuppose PF7580 (found in an Italian, a Romenian, a Jew (Goldschlager) I suspect introgressed from Europe), all Jewish L23 are L277+, and also Eastern European L23 is above all Z2110+, which presupposes the two SNPs you know intermediate between Z2105 and Z2110. Other subclades of Z2105 are tested Eastward of Italy.
    The previous R1b1* is in the East (India and probably Caucasus) L388/L389-.
    Richard, let them think what they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    R1b-L584 looks like it is from the Armenian Highlands.
    We need to find out what form of R-L23 the Iranian minorities are. Same goes for other groups. What is necessary is a study devoted to R-L23 in Near Eastern and West Asian groups, including the many non-Arab peoples of the region. No such study has ever been undertaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Richard, let them think what they want.
    Thank you.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-08-2013 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    We need to find out what form of R-L23 the Iranian minorities are. Same goes for other groups. What is necessary is a study devoted to R-L23 in Near Eastern and West Asian groups, including the many non-Arab peoples of the region. No such study has ever been undertaken.
    In the FTDNA Armenian, Assyrian, Aramaic and other ethnic projects from the region, are those kits residents of the region or from ethnic groups in the United States or elsewhere? The next best thing may be testing groups that had a relatively recent diaspora and still know their ancestory.

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