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Thread: Zarubintsy Culture

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    Zarubintsy Culture

    I've read that the Zarubintsy culture spread from the area of western Polesye/Volhynia to the Middle Dnieper (according to Kukharenko Yu.V., 1960: 289-290). Do most people agree on this? If not, where are the oldest Zarubintsy archeological sites located?

    I've also read that the Zarubintsy culture is one of the potential sources of the Kiev culture. The Kiev culture seems to be a likely candidate for the proto Slavs. If true, does that make the Zarubintsy culture a likley source for M458 and I2a?

    And does anybody have thoughts on the origins of the Zarubintsy culture? Did it develop out of the Milograd culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    I've read that the Zarubintsy culture spread from the area of western Polesye/Volhynia to the Middle Dnieper (according to Kukharenko Yu.V., 1960: 289-290). Do most people agree on this? If not, where are the oldest Zarubintsy archeological sites located?

    I've also read that the Zarubintsy culture is one of the potential sources of the Kiev culture. The Kiev culture seems to be a likely candidate for the proto Slavs. If true, does that make the Zarubintsy culture a likley source for M458 and I2a?

    And does anybody have thoughts on the origins of the Zarubintsy culture? Did it develop out of the Milograd culture?
    Have a look at this long thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....n-of-the-Slavs

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    I would prefer the Przeworsk culture for M458, based on modern distribution, with the exception of the YP417 clade of L1029. For L1029 as a whole, I believe there was a large population of them at one time that was decimated around the end of the first century AD-early second century. The Goths, perhaps? Then they were scattered through eastern Poland, northwest Ukraine, and southwest Belarus. A few stragglers were incorporated into Vandalic and Gothic tribes, while the rest would have to wait until the dawn of the Slavic expansions to thrive again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I would prefer the Przeworsk culture for M458, based on modern distribution, with the exception of the YP417 clade of L1029. For L1029 as a whole, I believe there was a large population of them at one time that was decimated around the end of the first century AD-early second century. The Goths, perhaps? Then they were scattered through eastern Poland, northwest Ukraine, and southwest Belarus. A few stragglers were incorporated into Vandalic and Gothic tribes, while the rest would have to wait until the dawn of the Slavic expansions to thrive again.
    Wouldn't this place some of what is now Slavic ancestry in places such as Poland and eastern Germany prior to what most believe? I am not necessarily assigning L1029 exclusively to the Slavs, although there are a good number of people with Slavic ancestry traceable to L1029, including many in eastern Germany. For example, my L1029 subclade is YP263,formed about 1850 years ago according t YFull. Within YP263 there are those who trace their ancestry to eastern European lands such as the Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, as well as those with South Slavic ancestry from places such as Bulgaria. From what I have read most attribute South Slavic ancestry as having come right from eastern Europe. I don't believe the Przeworsk culture was that far east. So, how do we account for this? For me YP263 was in the Slavic homeland 1850 years ago, which is later than to the formation of L1029. So, L1029 had to be in this area as well.
    Last edited by leonardo; 04-08-2019 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I would prefer the Przeworsk culture for M458, based on modern distribution, with the exception of the YP417 clade of L1029. For L1029 as a whole, I believe there was a large population of them at one time that was decimated around the end of the first century AD-early second century. The Goths, perhaps? Then they were scattered through eastern Poland, northwest Ukraine, and southwest Belarus. A few stragglers were incorporated into Vandalic and Gothic tribes, while the rest would have to wait until the dawn of the Slavic expansions to thrive again.
    From what I can understand, the little aDNA we have seen from the Przeworsk culture appears to be Germanic. IIRC no R1a at all.

    That being said, the Zarubintsy culture, at its western-most extent, covered some parts of Eastern Poland.

    These areas would later be absorbed by the expanding Wielbark culture (doesnít Jordanís say the Goths conquered the Veneti?). I wonder, if the Zarubintsy culture did carry L1029/L260, if any ended up joining them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Wouldn't this place some of what is now Slavic ancestry in places such as Poland and eastern Germany prior to what most believe? I am not necessarily assigning L1029 exclusively to the Slavs, although there are a good number of people with Slavic ancestry traceable to L1029, including many in eastern Germany. For example, my L1029 subclade is YP263,formed about 1850 years ago according t YFull. Within YP263 there are those who trace their ancestry to eastern European lands such as the Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, as well as those with South Slavic ancestry from places such as Bulgaria. From what I have read most attribute South Slavic ancestry as having come right from eastern Europe. I don't believe the Przeworsk culture was that far east. So, how do we account for this? For me YP263 was in the Slavic homeland 1850 years ago, which is later than to the formation of L1029. So, L1029 had to be in this area as well.
    Let me get this straight. So because today x y z is found in”insert country or region here” we assume that it must be be spread entirely by Slavic speakers. That’s some reductionist one track thinking. For one it’s all guesswork. We have zero ADNA for M458 let alone its descending clades for pre migration or even Iron Age for that matter. Modern distribution and socio-political borders mean squat in determining the origin or primary source of a lineage. Most scientists don’t even agree that a few ancient samples were necessarily representative of a whole population let alone none at all.

    Also, with the new find that non-Slavic Carpathian Elites(Magyars/Avars) also possessed some Balto-Slavic Z280, clearly displays the well dispersed nature of some of these lineages even in the early Middle Ages and prior. Let’s not forget even some of these “experts” are merely guessing in these forums. Until there is ancient DNA to fully support it with facts, it’s remains guesswork and should be treated as such.

    It’s very tempting to fill in the blanks and nothing wrong with speculation based off what we know but there’s still zero evidence. It amazes me how people ignore Z280 half the time when there’s plenty of ADNA proving its association with Balts and Slavs. Yet in the case of M458 there’s no specifically Balto-Slavic clade or even Baltic branch of M458 or even ancient DNA. M458 is mostly in central Europe and western Slavs. Also, before anyone claims there’s more M458 individuals in Eastern Europe than central Europe/west Slavs, quantity doesn’t translate to point of origin. Just as high I2a in the Balkans is due to bottlenecks and founder effects with most diversity in southern Poland.

    Most M458 diversity is in east Germany Poland and southwest Belarus. I’m not sure if that is SNP or STR diversity. So absent evidence it’s merely well educated conjecture. This idea that M458 was restricted to some area and never dispersed earlier than the migration or with other than Slavic speakers is dealing in absolutes. That’s agenda ridden. Whether people want to admit it or not.
    Last edited by Dibran; 04-12-2019 at 01:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    From what I can understand, the little aDNA we have seen from the Przeworsk culture appears to be Germanic. IIRC no R1a at all.

    That being said, the Zarubintsy culture, at its western-most extent, covered some parts of Eastern Poland.

    These areas would later be absorbed by the expanding Wielbark culture (doesn’t Jordan’s say the Goths conquered the Veneti?). I wonder, if the Zarubintsy culture did carry L1029/L260, if any ended up joining them.
    Sure. Yet, a few samples is not representative of an entire population. Also, to my knowledge these were elites. There’s no agreement and little evidence to support that the Goths or East Germanics were entirely Germanic. Rather they may have been akin to Balts or even Proto Slavs with a ruling Germanic elite.

    The idea that a few remains represents the entire population when lineages are in constant bouts of flux through the Ages is asinine. We are forgetting the past does not follow modern history’s rules nor did they adhere to the concepts of nationalism or national preservation. We are looking at the past with a modern lens. That’s problematic enough as it is without factoring in what little we actually know and how much the fallible men of the past are treated as infallible by the masses.


    Also material culture is not always representative of the ethnic makeup of a people. Wasn’t there some evidence of a Bronze Age globalziation and it’s collapse? Shared culture/trade etc. so we assume artifact a b or c looks Celtic so it’s celtic. But how certain are we that unrelated indo european groups didn’t trade or share/mix material cultures?

    Also, isn’t a good amount of history from the perspective of Germans in the last 300 years deciphering of the past, rather than a consecutive transmission of information?

    How certain are we what the Middle Ages really was like or even before? When my parents were going to school Neanderthals were retarded cave men. Now the evidence is being stacked against it. Unless we have evidence we can’t cement ourselves into one place.
    Last edited by Dibran; 04-12-2019 at 01:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Let me get this straight. So because today x y z is found inĒinsert country or region hereĒ we assume that it must be be spread entirely by Slavic speakers. Thatís some reductionist one track thinking. For one itís all guesswork. We have zero ADNA for M458 let alone its descending clades for pre migration or even Iron Age for that matter. Modern distribution and socio-political borders mean squat in determining the origin or primary source of a lineage. Most scientists donít even agree that a few ancient samples were necessarily representative of a whole population let alone none at all.

    Also, with the new find that non-Slavic Carpathian Elites(Magyars/Avars) also possessed some Balto-Slavic Z280, clearly displays the well dispersed nature of some of these lineages even in the early Middle Ages and prior. Letís not forget even some of these ďexpertsĒ are merely guessing in these forums. Until there is ancient DNA to fully support it with facts, itís remains guesswork and should be treated as such.

    Itís very tempting to fill in the blanks and nothing wrong with speculation based off what we know but thereís still zero evidence. It amazes me how people ignore Z280 half the time when thereís plenty of ADNA proving its association with Balts and Slavs. Yet in the case of M458 thereís no specifically Balto-Slavic clade or even Baltic branch of M458 or even ancient DNA. M458 is mostly in central Europe and western Slavs. Also, before anyone claims thereís more M458 individuals in Eastern Europe than central Europe/west Slavs, quantity doesnít translate to point of origin. Just as high I2a in the Balkans is due to bottlenecks and founder effects with most diversity in southern Poland.

    Most M458 diversity is in east Germany Poland and southwest Belarus. Iím not sure if that is SNP or STR diversity. So absent evidence itís merely well educated conjecture. This idea that M458 was restricted to some area and never dispersed earlier than the migration or with other than Slavic speakers is dealing in absolutes. Thatís agenda ridden. Whether people want to admit it or not.
    Haven't we had this discussion before? Why are you referencing M458 when I referenced L1029? That's comparing apples to oranges. Replace your M458 with L1029 and then you will understand (hopefully) why my post makes senses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Haven't we had this discussion before? Why are you referencing M458 when I referenced L1029? That's comparing apples to oranges. Replace your M458 with L1029 and then you will understand (hopefully) why my post makes senses.
    The same applies to L1029. Where is the pre-migration/Iron Age DNA? It spread with the Slavic migration. No one denies this. I challenge the assertion it EXCLUSIVELY spread with the Slavs only during the migration. As if to assume they were caged up in one spot so as not to appease the whims of nationalists to assign absolute character to a line that has no ancient DNA. Again modern distribution does not mean much. Theres no guarantee that other non-slavic speakers didn't absorb some L1029 among other "Proto-Slavic" lines and spread with non-Slavs. Also, L1029 formed 3100ypb. Around 1100BC. It experienced near extinction before expanding out. The TMRCA of L1029 is roughly 2100ypb. Even this is not agreed on, as Michals method would push it back. Whilst some algorithms posit its much younger. There is not even a consensus on determining its age, let alone any ancient DNA to solidify the popular THEORY we hold today.

    Absent evidence, its just a theory. A good working one. Not the only other possibility. None of what I said is necessarily wrong as the same still applies. You like many in here assumes the ancient past and all its ebbs and flows can be viewed with modern concepts of nations and peoples. It was only until the collapse of the Ottomans that all muslims were called "Turks". Many Ottoman "Turks" have South Slavic, and Albanian and Greek origin. There were no clearly defined nations or peoples. So stop assuming it worked then as it does now. Also the age of L1029 if its indeed accurate can only be linked to Proto-Slavs. Its only the descending clades that line up with the migration that can be definitely called Slavic. A majority of L1029's are DOWNSTREAM YP263/YP417(among a few others). L1029 itself is loosely referred to as Proto-Slavic. Ancient DNA will help solidify this.
    Last edited by Dibran; 04-12-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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    Dibran, I don’t think anyone is talking in absolutes here... and I don’t really see many people saying they know for fact the origins of L1029/M458... just how most of it most likely spread. The Slavs.

    And yeah we need to keep waiting on aDNA for a clearer picture, but we already have had some from the Przeworsk culture and it matches with a more Germanic profile. Yeah there could always be more that might show something different, but so far the aDNA shows it’s Germanic... at what point will enough aDNA be enough to make clear L1029 isn’t from there? At a certain point, insisting constantly for more makes the Przeworsk=Slavic theory unfalsifiable

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