Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: TRB-West....and it's echo!?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands

    TRB-West....and it's echo!?

    Last year a guy with the name FrankN posted this:
    https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-fir...st-group-adna/

    The Sorsum sample additionally suggests a sizeable WHG/SHG component in the TRB Tiefstichkeramik sphere that isn’t fully represented by the Gökhem samples, and most likely represents Swifterband-Erteboelle adstrate. In summary, TRB-Tiefstichkeramik may represent the fusion of both of the EEF streams (Mediterranean/Cardial, and Danubian/LBK, including their differing HG substrate), with North European post-Kongemose HG traditions.
    Sadly enough the reaction is not possible any longer.....I like to connect with him (may be a member here? or anyone who knows him?)

    OF COURSE OTHERS are invited to react too....

    This is my response:
    The TRB-West posting is a fascinating posting. Especially for me. My mother’s auDNA is only Hondsrug Drenthe. And as you know this is aTRB West hotspot!

    And when I analyse my mothers auDNA I get even for someone with North Dutch ancestry always (in eery PCA, admixture etc) a relative high HG (and sometimes somewhat enhanced EEF). Is this a late echo of TRB West? Or?

    These models are based on G25 Eurogenes. My mother is EBG (LB is me and JB my father, he is more generic North Dutch):

    sample”: “Test1:LB”,
    “fit”: 4.8715,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 40.83,
    “EEF”: 38.33,
    “SHG”: 20.83,

    “sample”: “Test2:JB”,
    “fit”: 4.7866,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 41.67,
    “EEF”: 40.83,
    “SHG”: 17.5,

    “sample”: “Test3:EBG”,
    “fit”: 4.5101,
    “EEF”: 40,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 38.33,
    “SHG”: 21.67,

    LB
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,38.6
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,21
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,19
    HUNTERS-WHG,11.8
    HUNTERS-SHG,9.6

    [1] “distance%=5.0813”

    JB
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,41.6
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,23.8
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,18.2
    HUNTERS-WHG,12.2
    HUNTERS-SHG,4.2

    [1] “distance%=4.842”

    EBG
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,33
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,26.6
    HUNTERS-SHG,17.6
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,16.2
    HUNTERS-WHG,6.6

    Nmonte G25 webrunner pen= 0,001
    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_LB”,
    “fit”: 4.6773,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 49.17,
    “Barcin_N”: 30.83,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 20,

    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser JB”,
    “fit”: 4.5702,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 48.33,
    “Barcin_N”: 33.33,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 18.33,

    “Custom:AGUser EBG “,
    “fit”: 4.4682,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 45.83,
    “Barcin_N”: 32.5,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 21.67,

    Pen=0
    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_LB”,
    “fit”: 4.2941,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 45.83,
    “Barcin_N”: 31.67,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 22.5,

    “sample”: “Custom: JB”,
    “fit”: 4.2305,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 46.67,
    “Barcin_N”: 33.33,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 20,

    “sample”: “Custom:EBG”,
    “fit”: 4.0873,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 44.17,
    “Barcin_N”: 32.5,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 23.33,
    Last edited by Finn; 04-13-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-14-2019),  Nibelung (04-13-2019),  palamede (04-14-2019)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    From the text:
    More plausible, however, is a sizeable SHG element picked up in the SW Baltic Sea area, from where the Tiefstich expansion originated (and from where we unfortunately don’t have any aDNA, neither Erteboelle nor TRB, so far).
    Mother father, Pickerell Geneplaza:
    * mother


    *father


    Mother has definately a NE European touch.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-14-2019)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Mom's HG even enhaces when I bring Narva Estonia in the game:

    pen= 0,001
    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
    "fit": 4.5559,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 38.33,
    "Barcin_N": 36.67,
    "Narva_Estonia": 25,

    and pen=0

    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
    "fit": 4.1137,
    "Barcin_N": 38.33,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 33.33,
    "Narva_Estonia": 28.33,

    again
    More plausible, however, is a sizeable SHG element picked up in the SW Baltic Sea area, from where the Tiefstich expansion originated (and from where we unfortunately don’t have any aDNA, neither Erteboelle nor TRB, so far).

    Add the Narva may also be a part of Yamna pastoralist to the West....so kind of double?
    Last edited by Finn; 04-13-2019 at 11:14 AM.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-14-2019),  palamede (04-14-2019)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    And with the Motala SHG vs WHG

    SHG

    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
    "fit": 4.4164,
    "Barcin_N": 38.33,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 35,
    "Sweden_Motala_HG": 26.67,

    vs

    WHG
    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
    "fit": 4.0705,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 45.83,
    "Barcin_N": 35.83,
    "WHG": 18.33,

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-14-2019),  palamede (04-14-2019)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    968
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Franchouillard
    Y-DNA
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    From the text:



    Mother has definately a NE European touch.
    Baltics and North Slavcs have got the greatest Paleolithic European part in Europe. But if modern Drenthe inhabitants contain an important Paleolithic European part, the NE European touch doesn't show a real North East ancestry . Simply Baltic countries and Hondsrug Drenthe coincide in an important Paleolithic European part .

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to palamede For This Useful Post:

     Camulogène Rix (04-14-2019),  Finn (04-15-2019),  JMcB (04-14-2019)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Baltics and North Slavcs have got the greatest Paleolithic European part in Europe. But if modern Drenthe inhabitants contain an important Paleolithic European part, the NE European touch doesn't show a real North East ancestry . Simply Baltic countries and Hondsrug Drenthe coincide in an important Paleolithic European part .
    People or pots?


    The difficulty is we have no Swifterbant/Ertebølle samples nor TRB-West samples (only TRB North and East).

    What we do know is that the HG component of (Finn) Mom has more in common with Narva (Baltic HG) and Motala (SHG) than sec WHG.


    This shows no relationship with West-Europe, see for example the Belgian results (no SHG/Baltic):




    As said Mom has Baltic/HG and SHG on a Swedish level (the other TRB hotspot).

    There are indeed two options:
    1. Swifterbant was genetically close to SHG/ Baltic like Ertebølle and was from a pre-Funnelbeaker period, Funnelbeaker was only a cultural chance so pots no people.
    2. Funnelbeaker came from the Southern Scandinavia to Drenthe. So an influx of SHG/BalticHG folk. So besides pots also people.

    I would opt for the second one (but can't exclude option 1, and may be it's in the middle?).

    What we do know is that Funnelbeaker is spread from SW Baltic to NW Europe, the oldest traces are found in Sarnowo, NE Poland. About 4100 BC it reaches the Baltic Sea shore of North Germany (=Wangels nowadays Holstein). About 3400 BC it reaches Drenthe.

    From a study of Seweryn Rzepecki and Lech Czerniak

    In our opinion, it was sandy soil agriculture that was one of the important factors that caused the expansion of farming societies to the north, being a turning point in long-term hunter-gatherer contacts with Danubian farmers. To be more precise, the transition from light soil farming, in connection with the slash and burn technique, and probably from the beginning with ploughing, opened the way for not only the expansion northwards but also the occupation on areas of sandy soils surrounded by enclaves, which for a long time had been inhabited by Danubian farmers (e.g. Greater Poland). It was just migrations of small TRB groups towards the north to Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Jutland and Scania that fundamentally changed earlier relations between farmers and hunter-gatherers, leading to a cultural transformation of the latter.
    I guess this was exactly going on in sandy soil Drenthe!
    Last edited by Finn; 04-15-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     palamede (04-15-2019)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Baltics and North Slavcs have got the greatest Paleolithic European part in Europe. But if modern Drenthe inhabitants contain an important Paleolithic European part, the NE European touch doesn't show a real North East ancestry . Simply Baltic countries and Hondsrug Drenthe coincide in an important Paleolithic European part .
    Frank N quote, he thinks that the influx in Drenthe is from the SW Baltics:

    Whatever the origin, from the 35th cBC onwards Megalithicism gained an enormous dynamic. By the late 34th century, it had reached East Frisia, and Drenthe in the NE Netherlands (the concentration of Helgoland flint in Drenthe hints at a possibly arrival by boat), as well as Scania and Central Mecklenburg.
    More plausible, however, is a sizeable SHG element picked up in the SW Baltic Sea area, from where the Tiefstich expansion originated (and from where we unfortunately don’t have any aDNA, neither Erteboelle nor TRB, so far).

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     palamede (04-15-2019)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    276
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Y-DNA
    G1a
    mtDNA
    I5b1

    Sweden
    When looking through your runs it seems that of the averages/individuals who require more HG admixture they get about the same fit with WHG as with the EHG-shifted SHG and Narva-Kunda samples, with the exception of the Swedish average which is expected given the rather recent Finnish input in modern day Swedes. This probably indicates that the Steppe source in NW Euros was maybe richer in EHG than what has been sampled so far and that the farmers whom they mixed with had slightly higher WHG than the source you are using.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Helves For This Useful Post:

     Finn (04-16-2019)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    V
    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    When looking through your runs it seems that of the averages/individuals who require more HG admixture they get about the same fit with WHG as with the EHG-shifted SHG and Narva-Kunda samples, with the exception of the Swedish average which is expected given the rather recent Finnish input in modern day Swedes. This probably indicates that the Steppe source in NW Euros was maybe richer in EHG than what has been sampled so far and that the farmers whom they mixed with had slightly higher WHG than the source you are using.
    You can see that Finn Mom follows almost exactly the Swedish pattern, without a Finnic influence. As said she has only ancestry from the Funnelbeaker hotspot. We don’t know the Ertebølle component of the Funnelbeaker West, but seen the origins of the Funnelbeaker West it’s assumable Finn Mom has a bunch of Ertebølle ancestry...
    Last edited by Finn; 04-16-2019 at 06:55 AM.

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,630
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Baltics and North Slavcs have got the greatest Paleolithic European part in Europe. But if modern Drenthe inhabitants contain an important Paleolithic European part, the NE European touch doesn't show a real North East ancestry . Simply Baltic countries and Hondsrug Drenthe coincide in an important Paleolithic European part .
    @Palamede about 'pots and people' part II:

    See this from Karsten Wentink, Ceci N'est Pas Une Hache: Neolithic Depositions in the Northern Netherlands:

    Last edited by Finn; 04-16-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  19. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (04-16-2019),  JMcB (04-17-2019),  palamede (04-17-2019),  Saosis (04-18-2019)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. West Slavic R1b
    By Tomenable in forum R1b General
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 10-09-2018, 03:48 PM
  2. West Slavic R1b
    By Tomenable in forum Slavic
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-03-2018, 12:11 PM
  3. West Eurasia K8
    By ZephyrousMandaru in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-14-2018, 01:18 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-02-2018, 06:14 AM
  5. Celtic from the West
    By V-X in forum Celtic
    Replies: 377
    Last Post: 01-15-2017, 05:22 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •