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Thread: DNA from Atlantic Megalithic tombs

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Problem with that is its 100% clear from archaeology that the overwhelmingly dominant strand in the isles Neolithic did not come from Iberia! The Isles Neolithic is overwhelmingly likely from northern France and even points east of that. The only way Iberian farmer DNA came to the isles would be if it got there through some mixing of French Cardial people with the (ultimately) LBK-descended types you see across northern France. Anyone claiming the British or Irish Neolithic (they are far more similar to each other than to anyone else) that arrived c. 4000-3800BC came from Iberia has clearly no knowledge of the archaeology of the isles and Iberia at that time. They in no way resemble each other at all.

    I suspect the link to Iberia that ancient DNA is being interpreted as implying is really a link to northern France but lack of testing in France keeps defaulting the matches back to Iberia. People who get carried away with idea about passage tombs etc need to remember that all the evidence points to the big population arrival and boom in the early Neolithic isles at c. 4000-3700BC or so. So you need to look at the evidence from that period and this is dominated by rectangular aisled houses, causewayed enclosures, burial monuments based on an elongated form (long barrows, wedge tombs, cotswold-severn tombs, clyde cairns and others), a dominant type of early Neolithic pottery and a flint technology that all points much more to the narrowest channel crossings from NE France than anywhere else. It has been suggested there might be an input from Brittany into Atlantic Scotland too. However, no archaeologist in the modern era has connected the isles early Neolithic with Iberia.

    Its usually hazy stuff relating to the later periods of the Neolithic (circular planned passage tombs with a few features in common etc) that get the Atlantis brigade excited but IMO those later Neolithic connections all down the north Atlantic and Irish sea are fairly constant low level contacts and movement of individuals with ideas rather than anything demographically significant. I will be incredibly surprised if it eventually isnt shown that the isles farmers derived from north-east France and thereabouts.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...iPPdubHoKRpL1A

    From the abstract:


    The roles of migration, admixture and acculturation in the European transition to farming have been debated for over 100 years. Genome-wide ancient DNA studies indicate predominantly Aegean ancestry for continental Neolithic farmers, but also variable admixture with local Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Neolithic cultures first appear in Britain circa 4000 BC, a millennium after they appeared in adjacent areas of continental Europe. The pattern and process of this delayed British Neolithic transition remain unclear. We assembled genome-wide data from 6 Mesolithic and 67 Neolithic individuals found in Britain, dating 8500–2500 BC. Our analyses reveal persistent genetic affinities between Mesolithic British and Western European hunter-gatherers. We find overwhelming support for agriculture being introduced to Britain by incoming continental farmers, with small, geographically structured levels of hunter-gatherer ancestry. Unlike other European Neolithic populations, we detect no resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry at any time during the Neolithic in Britain. Genetic affinities with Iberian Neolithic individuals indicate that British Neolithic people were mostly descended from Aegean farmers who followed the Mediterranean route of dispersal. We also infer considerable variation in pigmentation levels in Europe by circa 6000 BC.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    It is a silly question because at the end both streams of farmers ultimately came from the mediterranean. I agree with you that is quite likely that farmers arrived in England from France ( and not directly from Iberia) but I think is also likely that they were mostly of post-cardial origin ( they were a mix of cardial and local french HG) rather than LBK. British farmers cluster with the farmers that from ( roughly ) the Paris basin influenced and triggered the cultural expansion ( I can agree with you that it was not a full scale invasion ) that paved the way for the birth of the big cultures of the northern european plain ( TRB and GAC). Michelsberg culture as of the new genetic findings also has its origin in this eastward movement from France that caused the erosion of the LBK world. So it is fair to assume that agricolture in England came predominantly from a cardial source.
    If you don't like south western europe you can call them anatolian farmers if that makes you happy. I'm fine with that
    LOL I have no problem (if fact really like) SW Europe. If the evidence goes that way then im fine with that. I probably have very little ancestry from British Neolithics anyway if the recent ancient DNA conclusions about the local farmers being close to wiped out by bell beakers is true. So I have no horse in this race. As you said, they are basically two streams of the same people. My main issue with Cardial is that its generally not thought that the Cardial Neolithic culture existed north the Loire and in northern France from where the farmers would have moved to England. There was a band of LBK and derived farmers running all the way from the Rhine to eastern Brittany. So if the cardial elements did filter into northern France, it must have been after the Cardial culture per se had disappeared. In other words, cardial genes but in another cultural guise. Perhaps it happened somewhere in the very complex developments in the Paris basin c. 5000-4000BC with Chaseen, Cerny etc. Some have suggested southern influences. But they sound to me like they are coming from southern France rather than Iberia albeit both regions had a Cardial early Neolithic. Med. French Cardial likely came from the east while the Cardial of the Vendee probably came by land from Med. French Cardial. So, when they say Iberia are they really saying Cardial? iberia is probably the biggest modern reservoir of Cardial DNA though due to its extreme western position.

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    The British and French samples are pretty identical. I believe the French samples were a few hundred years after the Paris Basin population boom. I think French Cardial were pretty much replaced early on.

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    Sorry for being a little OT but you all likely remember the much talked about issue of the possible findings of R1b 312 in the middle volga. Here is the translation courtesy of rms2 IIRC of the conference of Khokhlov.


    IIRC - A.A.Khokhlov had supposedly found an P312 sample at Khvalynsk.

    Translation of Alexey Butin's original 27th Jan 2018 post ...
    "Hello. Today the XIV Samara Archaeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard.
    Khokhlov A.A. Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural period of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists.
    In his report Khokhlov A.A. introduced into the scientific revolution yet unpublished data of the Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both Mariupol and Hvalyn features, and belongs to 4th quarter of the 5th millennium BC. All samples analyzed were of the uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R - P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In the Khvalynsk repositories (1 half IV. BC) anthropological material is more diverse. In addition to the uraloid substrate, the European broad-faced and southern European variants are recorded. R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to the mito T2a1b, H2a1 by the haplogroups."

    Since there is a lot of talk about megalithic I2a2 I just noticed that this Y line apparently pops up deep into the steppe ( Khvalynsk culture first half of the IV th millennium). It was present IIRC in Ukraine neolithic (5300 BC circa ) and in Ukraine eneolithic ( Dereivka circa 4700 BC with an autosomal profile 100% EEF). If confirmed it would be the first time of an Yline EEF so east. We already have the mixed farmers steppe eneolithic in Sredni Stog and now this possible intrusion of farmers on the Volga. Maybe it is connected with the southern european anthropological variants quoted in the translation? Maybe the broad faced is a possible intrusion of sredni stog ( R1a samples). Because I always suspected that Yamnaya= Sredni Stog + Progress eneolithic.
    It seems too good to be true. Or I'm just missing something.
    Please help me.

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    No real change in this information dated 1 Year and 4 months ago. Always so blurring and incertain. I bet for a mistake in the analyse.

    For Kvalynsk c. (first half of IV millenia BC) R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 and the mito T2a1b, H2a1 are possible. I2a2 is very old (long before Megalithism) and the branches were scattered thru Europa at this time. In fact, O1a1 is more surprising . The East Asiatic C2 (old C3), Q, and O2 (old O3) would be less surprising on the Volga river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    No real change in this information dated 1 Year and 4 months ago. Always so blurring and incertain. I bet for a mistake in the analyse.

    For Kvalynsk c. (first half of IV millenia BC) R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 and the mito T2a1b, H2a1 are possible. I2a2 is very old (long before Megalithism) and the branches were scattered thru Europa at this time. In fact, O1a1 is more surprising . The East Asiatic C2 (old C3), Q, and O2 (old O3) would be less surprising on the Volga river.
    Someone probably forgot to cross their I's, dot their T's, and I guess draw a 45 degree diagonal tail in the lower right quadrant of their Q's?
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    Found the answer. Sorry.
    Last edited by Celt_??; Today at 03:18 AM.
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