Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Looking for information on the Gaulish language and the languages of modern France

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,082
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France

    Looking for information on the Gaulish language and the languages of modern France

    I've been reading about the languages of France and how Gaulish may have affected them. In broad terms, the ones I have found the most information on are standard French ('Oil'), Occitan ('Oc'), and Breton.
    One thing I'd like to know more about is how Gaulish affected the Oil and Oc Romance languages of France. Some people have shared the opinion that Gaulish was very similar to Latin, so it is impossible to know how affected French was by this as it could have been that Latin and Gaulish were so similar to begin with that it is impossible to gauge the impact.
    Some have shared the opinion that hardly any influence from Gaulish remains in modern French, except for the one hundred or so words which we think come from it. These sources stated that the oddities and departures from other Romance languages are almost exclusively due to Germanic influence. I was surprised to see ideas that French is devoid or nearly devoid of any Gaulish influence expressed fairly frequently in my search.
    There's the idea that the French Romance languages contain a Gaulish substrate, and were noticeably affected by this, vocabulary excluded. Some things I read expressed the belief that Occitan would be closer to Gaulish as it doesn't contain the added layer of Germanic Frankish language that the Oil languages received. The Oil languages, being further north than the Oc languages would have received Latin influence later, and I was able to find more words of Gaulish origin in standard French than I was for Occitan, but this could be because I wasn't looking in the right places. It is hard to tell which language group out of these two might have been more strongly influenced by Gaulish with what I have access to.
    There seems to have been a few theories proposed about Breton having a strong link to the Gaulish language, one even claiming that the Vannetais dialect of Breton is more or less a case of Gaulish language survival. I'm curious if anyone here knows more about these theories or ideas.

    There's the idea that Gaulish would have been closer to the Romance languages, based on the claim that Gaulish was more similar to Latin than Insular Celtic, and the opposing idea that it was quite dissimilar to Latin and quite close to the P-Celtic Insular languages. I was hoping to get some more concrete information on this topic but it seems like I have a collection of theories instead. Is there no agreement on this topic? Does anyone have any further information on this?

    Thanks very much
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     CannabisErectusHibernius (04-19-2019),  Dewsloth (04-17-2019),  JMcB (04-23-2019),  NixYO (04-17-2019),  Power77 (04-18-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (04-17-2019),  timberwolf (04-18-2019),  Trelvern (04-23-2019),  vettor (04-17-2019)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,380
    Sex
    Location
    Paris
    Ethnicity
    Western European
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27>ZZ12>ZZ39
    mtDNA
    K1a4a1

    Italy 1861-1946 France-Ile-de-France Lorraine
    If you understand French, just read this paper: a good summary of what we know today on this vanished language. Gaulish would have been definitelly closer to Insular Celtic (Brittonic). Julius Ceasar needed a translator when he negotiated with the chieftains of Gaul tribes.
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulois_(langue)
    Eurogenes G25 (Bronze Age): 80% Bell_Beaker_Bavaria+20% Minoan_Lasithi
    Eurogenes G25 (ancient): 38% Corded_Ware_Baltic_Early+38% Scotland_N+24% Anatolia_EBA

  4. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Camulogène Rix For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-23-2019),  NixYO (04-17-2019),  Power77 (04-18-2019),  Ruderico (04-17-2019),  sktibo (04-17-2019),  timberwolf (04-18-2019)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,659
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA
    T1a2b- Z19945 - Jura
    mtDNA
    H95a1 - Pannoni

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Germany Palatinate
    There is another dictionary you can buy in france apart from the languages you mentioned above
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco...%A7al_language


    The Royal house of Italy, the House of Savoy began by speaking Savoyard , a branch of Franco-provencal, before learning Piedmontese
    I have also held a savoyard dictionary in my hand when I was last in france
    Last edited by vettor; 04-17-2019 at 05:59 PM.

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,082
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    If you understand French, just read this paper: a good summary of what we know today on this vanished language. Gaulish would have been definitelly closer to Insular Celtic (Brittonic). Julius Ceasar needed a translator when he negotiated with the chieftains of Gaul tribes.
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulois_(langue)
    Thanks, there are also the accounts of the Romans writing in greek instead of latin so that the Gauls wouldn't be able to read messages. I think it's probably both - translators were needed for spoken but the written language was similar enough for a need to disguise it using Greek.
    I was able to read the wiki page you linked on Gaulish and one on Breton using translate, it has more info than the English versions, so thank you! These said that the idea of a significant Gaulish influence on Breton, Vannetais in particular, aren't considered to be a real possibility any more. It also said that the Gaulish language used an SVO word order as opposed to Insular Celtic including Breton which are VSO. I'm not stating that I think Gaulish is more similar to Latin than insular Celtic but it seems from what I can tell to be somewhere in between these. The wiki page also reminded me that we don't know these things for sure! I'll have to read it over again.. Lot of good stuff in there.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  7. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Camulogène Rix (04-18-2019),  JMcB (04-23-2019),  NixYO (04-18-2019),  Power77 (04-18-2019),  timberwolf (04-18-2019),  Trelvern (04-18-2019)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,082
    Sex
    Location
    Taiwan
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA
    T2B-T152C

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    Just in case anyone else is interested in this, there's a paper called "ON THE GAULISH INFLUENCE ON BRETON" on academia.eu (https://www.academia.edu/28555947/ON...ENCE_ON_BRETON)

    It looks to be well written and researched, but I'm not an expert on any of this. It concludes that we more or less have no real evidence that Gaulish influenced the Breton language, but that it might have happened. Here's what the conclusion has to say:

    As we have seen in the first Chapter, not all of the arguments on the survival of Gaulish are satisfactory, either because of the interpretation of the data or because of the fact that the texts do not specifically tell us anything about the situation in Armorica. We cannot be sure that we are dealing with the Gaulish language, every time Gallica lingua is mentioned in a Latin text. However, when we look at the big picture, it seems plausible that Gaulish was still spoken in Armorica at the time the Bretons arrived; it was a relatively remote area, just as the Alpine regions, and the connections with Britain could very well have played a role. Therefore it is likely that there was a situation in which Gaulish could have influenced Breton.
    How are the arguments that are used by Falchun and Fleuriot to prove Gaulish influence on Breton constructed, and are these satisfactory and sound? In the second Chapter, I have shown that there are some problems of argumentation in the debate. Falchuns argument on the accent of both Gaulish and Breton cannot be used to prove Gaulish influence, because Modern Breton evidence was used instead of Old Breton data, which is anachronistic. In other cases, such as the initial h-, the clusters *xs and -tn-, -tl-, -tr- and -cr-, palatalisation and rhotacism, French is equalled with Gaulish, because there is no or little evidence from Gaulish, but this premise is not always legitimate (2.1.2, 2.1.4, 2.1.5, 2.1.7 and 2.1.8). The development of sr- into fr- is not only shared by Breton and Gaulish, but also by Welsh, and is probably from an earlier stage, i.e. the Gallo-Brittonic unity, and can therefore not be used to prove Gaulish influence. In the arguments on the morphological features in 2.2, archaisms are taken as evidence for Gaulish influence. When we take all the arguments together, we can conclude that the case for Gaulish influence on Breton is not very well-founded.
    The unexpected Breton features such as *xs > s (2.1.4) or *ū > u (2.3.1), and the metathesized form of banal (2.3.2) still have to be explained, and it is possible to do so with the help of Gaulish influence. However, we have to be aware not to use Gaulish influence as an argument that can be used whenever something is not explained otherwise, as Falchun seems to do quite often.
    Our knowledge of Gaulish and Old Breton is not comprehensive, and it is therefore not an easy task to prove the Gaulish influence on Breton, but as our knowledge of the languages increases, more evidence may come to light to explain some of the things we discussed, or to support or deny the idea of Gaulish influence on Breton entirely.
    The French Wikipedia page on Gaulish mentions this in regards to Breton and Gaulish:
    À une époque, certains ont tenté, à la suite de François Falc'hun, d'expliquer les particularités du dialecte vannetais du breton par l'influence d'un substrat gaulois. Aujourd'hui, la plupart des linguistes ont rejeté cette hypothèse et expliquent, a contrario, certaines de ces particularités dialectales par l'existence d'un substrat gallo-romain plus important dans la région de Vannes (cf. les explications dans l'article sur la langue bretonne).
    At one time, some tried, following François Falc'hun, to explain the peculiarities of the Vannet dialect of Breton by the influence of a Gaulish substrate. Today, most linguists have rejected this hypothesis and, conversely, explain some of these dialectal peculiarities by the existence of a greater Gallo-Roman substratum in the Vannes region (see explanations in the article on the Breton language).
    As I don't speak French I'm not sure how well Google Translate did on this so I'm not completely certain about this translation.


    I really wish I had some information which goes into detail on the Occitan language or the Langues D'Oc and how those might or might not relate to or have been affected by the Gaulish language. I have a feeling that this information is out there but that it exists in the French speaking part of the internet outside of what I can access using English...
    Last edited by sktibo; 04-19-2019 at 12:45 PM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     CannabisErectusHibernius (04-23-2019),  JonikW (04-19-2019),  NixYO (04-19-2019)

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Location
    Portlandia
    Ethnicity
    Gael
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-L226-DC26
    mtDNA
    HV0-t0195!

    United States of America Ireland
    I remember reading somewhere that some Gaulish tribes spoke Q-Celtic dialects, anybody know anything about this?
    I wonder if these Q speaking tribes were on the hinterlands of the Atlantic, or perhaps adjacent to the Celtiberians of Spain? Koch's theory about Q celtic being spoken in the bronze age, and the P innovation coming with the Iron Age is pretty interesting, though I guess not really on topic. I am curious as to how many Gauls actually made it into Ireland, Gall in Irish means foreigner. Donegal = fort of the Gauls?��
    You got the wrong number, can I take a message?

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to CannabisErectusHibernius For This Useful Post:

     Trelvern (04-23-2019)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,539
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Irish
    Nationality
    Irish
    Y-DNA
    M222 (S588)
    mtDNA
    J1c3f

    Ireland Australia Ireland County Tipperary
    Quote Originally Posted by CannabisErectusHibernius View Post
    I remember reading somewhere that some Gaulish tribes spoke Q-Celtic dialects, anybody know anything about this?
    I wonder if these Q speaking tribes were on the hinterlands of the Atlantic, or perhaps adjacent to the Celtiberians of Spain? Koch's theory about Q celtic being spoken in the bronze age, and the P innovation coming with the Iron Age is pretty interesting, though I guess not really on topic. I am curious as to how many Gauls actually made it into Ireland, Gall in Irish means foreigner. Donegal = fort of the Gauls?��
    Gall just meant foreigner not Gaul so Donegal would be fort of the foreigners. So any foreigner in Ireland i.e. Viking, Norman would be called Gall.

  13. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jessie For This Useful Post:

     CannabisErectusHibernius (04-23-2019),  Helgenes50 (04-23-2019),  JMcB (04-23-2019),  sktibo (04-23-2019),  Trelvern (04-23-2019)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    874
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA
    R-U106 S497
    mtDNA
    K1a

    France Bretagne Trégor France Bretagne Kroaz Du
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Gall just meant foreigner not Gaul so Donegal would be fort of the foreigners. So any foreigner in Ireland i.e. Viking, Norman would be called Gall.
    Le Gall (Ar Gall=foreigner) is a very common surname in Brittany
    and the foreigner is the French!

    galleg \ˈɡa.lːek\ masculin
    (Linguistique) Français (langue) (french language)


    the eastern part of Brittany is "gallo" (does not speak Breton but a Romance language)
    Last edited by Trelvern; 04-23-2019 at 06:49 AM.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Trelvern For This Useful Post:

     CannabisErectusHibernius (04-24-2019),  Helgenes50 (04-23-2019),  JMcB (04-23-2019),  sktibo (04-23-2019)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Location
    Portlandia
    Ethnicity
    Gael
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-L226-DC26
    mtDNA
    HV0-t0195!

    United States of America Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Gall just meant foreigner not Gaul so Donegal would be fort of the foreigners. So any foreigner in Ireland i.e. Viking, Norman would be called Gall.
    Thought I read somewhere that the term Gall originally referred to Gauls in old Irish, but I cant find anything. Of course Ptolemy's map has the Manapi in Ireland, which could be related to the Belgic Menapii. Or could just be a common Celtic tribal name. The Donegal comment was meant tongue in cheek, but the emoticons just don't come through.
    You got the wrong number, can I take a message?

  17. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    843
    Sex
    Location
    Sweden
    Ethnicity
    Germanic + Italo-Celt
    Nationality
    Swedish
    Y-DNA
    R-L2 / R1b-U152
    mtDNA
    H1a1

    Sweden Italy Italy 1861-1946 Sami Vatican
    Interesting thread. I always wonder how much impact Latin and Romans had on French and Iberian languages.
    Since Italic and Celtic prop derived from the same origin. Same thing with the genetics. Did the romans impact French to be more "med" than before?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Any information about Q-L54?
    By Kaspias in forum Q
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-02-2018, 10:17 PM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-20-2018, 01:52 PM
  3. The Gaulish Souk
    By anglesqueville in forum General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-08-2017, 07:42 PM
  4. R5 - Information?
    By khanabadoshi in forum R/R0
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-28-2016, 09:04 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-22-2013, 02:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •