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Thread: Gene Flow Between Southern and South-eastern Asia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostAssassin0701 View Post
    Something I’ve noticed is that the Burmese seem to have more North Indian related ancestry than Cambodians/Thais. The model I ran had them at 4% “Uttar Pradesh” and 8% Velamas which is in contrast to the Thais being almost only Velamas. Could this reflect some extra Bengali ancestry in the Burmese that Thais/Cambodians don’t have?

    Edit: Here's a model I ran but I'm not sure if Thai IA is hiding some South Asian, which would explain why it seems relatively low. The Dharkar and Velama amount is identical though.
    "sample": "Burmese:Average",
    "fit": 2.0745,
    "Thailand_IA_Averaged": 50.83,
    "Tibetan_Averaged": 40.83,
    "Dharkar_Averaged": 4.17,
    "Velamas_Averaged": 4.17,
    Yeah, a year back or so, Razib had this post on his blog regarding it.

    The Burmese tend to have a heavy shift towards Bengalis in PCAs and such. Likely during the Pyu City States (Iron Age Burma), the people of those states absorbed Indian cultures, probably through a migration of proto-Bengali like people. These Pyu people were proto-Burmese, who would likely have had way more South Asian-like ancestry, before the actual Burmese-like people migrated from borders of Yunnan and mixed with them to produce the modern Bamars. Also, the Bamars have a very huge variation in mtdna (probably the most diverse in SEA), including a lot of Indian-specific mtdna, in contrast to the other South-east Asian ethnic groups further east, who mainly have South Asian/West Eurasian y-dna markers.

    Since, the region is largely contiguous with the Indian subcontinent, greater share of ancestry is to be expected, though the region is sheltered from South Asia by the Arakan Yoma mountains and Lushai hills. In addition, mainstream Burma used to host a large population of Brahmins, before the British conquest. Most of these Brahmins hailed from Manipur and Kashi (Benares/Varanasi), but there was a large native Burmese Brahmin population in the border regions with South Asia, until very recently. People west of the Arakan yoma range, the Rakhine, especially the Northern Rakhines in Bangladesh, probably have up to 30% South Asian ancestry. The Rakhine rulers, used to style themselves using Persianate/Hindu titles, and was a vassal of the Bengal Sultanate for a lot of its history. Even after gaining independence, the Rakhine court was mostly composed of Bengali intellectuals/poets (including some of my own ancestors) and military men. They were also notorious for slave raiding, along with the Portuguese in Bengal. A small minority of Rakhines in Bangladesh, can often somewhat resemble Bengalis, such as this film director from Bangladesh.

     

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    I estimate their AASI by multiply their harappa 'South Indian' by 0.8, then using the remainder and other West Eurasian components to calculate the total. This matches what I got when modelling them with nmonte as well.

    I'm not sure if David is correct here, Gonds shouldn't be 'fully AASI'.
    I am also not sure about this. But it is interesting. Maybe you should inquire David/Generalissmo on Anthrogenica regarding this " some Gonds being almost pure AASI" matter.

    I see. Thanks. So here I tried to find the Western admixture in Bonda and Khonda Dora by modelling them with Simulated AASI, Han and Sardinian. I used Sardinian because they are the purest West Eurasian (I believed) while Han is used to represent their East Asian admix. I wonder how pure is the Simulated AASI? Does it contain any ANE?

    I know it is not that of a good fit. But I used Sardinian rather than Ganj Dareh because I want to see how much Western they really are.

    I also used the least Western-shifted Bonda sample which is Bonda:ORI34 while there is only one Khonda Dora.

    "sample": "Bonda:ORI34",
    "fit": 7.0518,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 65.83,
    "Han_Averaged": 25.83,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 8.33,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 16.44500",
    "Han_Averaged:Averaged: 33.73315",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 53.11635"
    ]
    },
    {
    "sample": "Khonda_Dora:S_Khonda_Dora-1",
    "fit": 7.4547,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 65,
    "Han_Averaged": 24.17,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 10.83,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 16.55870",
    "Han_Averaged:Averaged: 34.79519",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 51.60991"

    From here, it seems like this Bonda (Bonda ORI34) and Khonda Dora sample are around 8 and 11% Western admixed (not counting ANE which is considered by many ppl to be predominantly archaic West Eurasian genome with some AASI-like affinities).

    However, when I also included MA1 to filter out any ANE along with other West Eurasian admix. The mix seems a bit better:

    "sample": "Bonda:ORI34",
    "fit": 6.8289,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 64.17,
    "Han_Averaged": 25.83,
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3_Averaged": 5.83,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 4.17,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 16.44500",
    "Han_Averaged:Averaged: 33.73315",
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3_Averaged:Averaged: 46.93440",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 53.11635"
    ]
    },
    {
    "sample": "Khonda_Dora:S_Khonda_Dora-1",
    "fit": 7.2281,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 63.33,
    "Han_Averaged": 24.17,
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3_Averaged": 6.67,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 5.83,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 16.55870",
    "Han_Averaged:Averaged: 34.79519",
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3_Averaged:Averaged: 45.86442",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 51.60991"

    Now the Bonda (Bonda ORI34) and Khonda Dora sample seem around 10% and 12% Western (Sardinian and some AG3/ANE) admix. Although the ANE might also contain some AASI/East Eurasian admix, so the West Eurasian for Bonda and Khonda Dora might be few percents less than that like 8 and 10%.

    P.S.- Keep in mind this a Bonda sample, not the average Bonda.
    Last edited by Tsakhur; 04-25-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    I just modeled the Thai average using Poi's nmonte runner.

    The model below shows the Indian mixture in Thai. You can see that there is preference for Velama (a mid caste community from Andhra), in contrast to the Dharkar, (an artisan community from Uttar Pradesh). This represents the fact that the transmission of Indian/Hindu culture, and especially genetic influence into South-east Asia was mainly through South India. The Tamil Cholas, especially had a very big impact, as well as Sinhalese later during the Buddhist age culturally. This is reflected in the region's scripts, motifs and architecture. Though a very big North Indian was also obviously felt through spread of Buddhism during the Mauryan empire, but the region was already Hindu prior to this and there was no migration or genetic change.

    "sample": "Thai:Average",
    "fit": 2.1747,
    "Dai": 78.33,
    "LAO_Hoabinhian": 12.5,
    "Velamas": 8.33,
    "Dharkar": 0.83


    This next model represents the Thai migrations into the land of the Mon-Khmer people that earlier inhabited Thailand, who were most likely very Cambodian like in genetics, while the migrating Thai are represented by the Dai. Thailand was obviously subject to a significant Han migration later from Southern China, so Han is used to account for that.

    "sample": "Thai:Average",
    "fit": 1.0757,
    "Cambodian": 44.17,
    "Dai": 33.33,
    "Velamas": 11.67,
    "Han": 10.83
    Interesting. So I tried to gauge the average West Eurasian admixture in Thai/Cambodians using AASI, Dai and Sardinian (maybe I should have used Ganj Dareh).

    It seems the average Thai and Cambodian are around 6 and 3% West Eurasian (maybe there is some more hiding in the AASI if they have ANE?)

    "sample": "Cambodian:Average",
    "fit": 4.6287,
    "Dai_Averaged": 89.17,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 7.5,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 3.33,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 6.842985",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 41.221696",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 60.555519"
    ]
    },
    {
    "sample": "Thai:Average",
    "fit": 2.8567,
    "Dai_Averaged": 82.5,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 11.67,
    "Sardinian_Averaged": 5.83,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 8.453019",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 38.974913",
    "Sardinian_Averaged:Averaged: 57.676041"
    ]

  5. #24
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    @Tsakhur, the fits are way too large for them to be 'legitimate'. Also you cannot count ANE as either West Eurasian or East Eurasian, it predates both. If you count ANE as E eurasian, then no Indo-Aryan or Dravidian group in South Asia is predominantly West Eurasian, since even groups like Kalash are like 37% ANE. South Asians overall have the highest ANE after some Uralic/Siberian/Native American populations.

    Model them with ancients like Iranian Neolithic/Sintashta to get a more accurate estimation of their West Eurasian ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    @Tsakhur, the fits are way too large for them to be 'legitimate'. Also you cannot count ANE as either West Eurasian or East Eurasian, it predates both. If you count ANE as E eurasian, then no Indo-Aryan or Dravidian group in South Asia is predominantly West Eurasian, since even groups like Kalash are like 37% ANE. South Asians overall have the highest ANE after some Uralic/Siberian/Native American populations.

    Model them with ancients like Iranian Neolithic/Sintashta to get a more accurate estimation of their West Eurasian ancestry.
    Thanks for your suggestion.

    What is ANE really then if it predates both? If thats the case, pure blood Native Americans do not really have West Eurasian ancestry then even if they have like 40% ANE?

    Are you addressing this regarding only the modelling of Bonda, Khonda Dora or also the modelling of Cambodian and Thai samples?

    Should I also use Iranian Neolithic/Sintashta to get a more accurate estimation of West Eurasian ancestry in Thais and Cambodians?
    Last edited by Tsakhur; 04-26-2019 at 12:59 AM.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Thanks for your suggestion.

    What is ANE really then if it predates both? If thats the case, pure blood Native Americans do not really have West Eurasian ancestry then even if they have like 40% ANE?

    Are you addressing this regarding only the modelling of Bonda, Khonda Dora or also the modelling of Cambodian and Thai samples?

    Should I also use Iranian Neolithic/Sintashta to get a more accurate estimation of West Eurasian ancestry in Thais and Cambodians?
    Yeah it should work if you do. I meant ANE is present in a lot of Eurasian populations from East Asians to Europeans. You cannot really classify it in the East or West Eurasian cluster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Yeah it should work if you do. I meant ANE is present in a lot of Eurasian populations from East Asians to Europeans. You cannot really classify it in the East or West Eurasian cluster.
    I will try it. I don't think there is ANE in most East Asians though except some groups like Mongols or Northern ethnic minorities in China like Ulchi, Oroqen, Hezhen.

    I really hope there are more research into what ANE really is.

    Does Sintashta have any East Eurasian admix or is it 100% West Eurasian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    I will try it. I don't think there is ANE in most East Asians though except some groups like Mongols or Northern ethnic minorities in China like Ulchi, Oroqen, Hezhen.

    I really hope there are more research into what ANE really is.

    Does Sintashta have any East Eurasian admix or is it 100% West Eurasian?
    ANE is present in most Eurasians except those with more Basal Eurasian ancestry like in Arabia. Search for Davidski's ANE K7 spreadsheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Yeah it should work if you do. I meant ANE is present in a lot of Eurasian populations from East Asians to Europeans. You cannot really classify it in the East or West Eurasian cluster.
    Anyway here are some modelling to find the amount of AASI and West Eurasian ancestry in Thais and Cambodians. I used the Sintashta for the Steppe signal (which would likely show North Indian influence in these SE Asians).

    So this Thai average sample is 8.33% West Eurasian and 9.17% AASI while the Cambodian average sample is 3.34% West Eurasian and 7.5% AASI? Make sense for Thai to have more West Eurasian and AASI than Cambodians though as they are geographically further west which is closer to South Asia.

    "sample": "Thai:Average",
    "fit": 2.3858,
    "Dai_Averaged": 82.5,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 9.17,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged": 5,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged": 3.33,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 8.453019",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 38.974913",
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged:Averaged: 52.050957",
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged:Averaged: 53.664100"

    "sample": "Cambodian:Average",
    "fit": 4.6476,
    "Dai_Averaged": 89.17,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 7.5,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged": 1.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged": 1.67,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 6.842985",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 41.221696",
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged:Averaged: 55.383989",
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged:Averaged: 56.667931"
    Last edited by Tsakhur; 04-26-2019 at 03:14 AM.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Anyway here are some modelling to find the amount of AASI and West Eurasian ancestry in Thais and Cambodians. I used the Sintashta for the Steppe signal (which would likely show North Indian influence in these SE Asians).

    So this Thai average sample is 8.33% West Eurasian and 9.17% AASI while the Cambodian average sample is 3.34% West Eurasian and 7.5% AASI? Make sense for Thai to have more West Eurasian and AASI than Cambodians though as they are geographically further west which is closer to South Asia.

    "sample": "Thai:Average",
    "fit": 2.3858,
    "Dai_Averaged": 82.5,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 9.17,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged": 5,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged": 3.33,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 8.453019",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 38.974913",
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged:Averaged: 52.050957",
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged:Averaged: 53.664100"

    "sample": "Cambodian:Average",
    "fit": 4.6476,
    "Dai_Averaged": 89.17,
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 7.5,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged": 1.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged": 1.67,
    "closestDistances": [
    "Dai_Averaged:Averaged: 6.842985",
    "Simulated_AASI_Averaged:Averaged: 41.221696",
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N_Averaged:Averaged: 55.383989",
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_Averaged:Averaged: 56.667931"
    Distance for the Thai is decent, but the Cambodian modelling isn't the best. I would suggest adding Iron Age Laos (Hoabinhan) to account for AASI-like native SEA ancestry, which is more prevalent in Cambodians. The Thai sample especially also needs Han btw.

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