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Thread: Inflanty (Livonian) Poles on GEDmatch

  1. #1
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    Inflanty (Livonian) Poles on GEDmatch

    Livonia = English for Inflanty.

    Several studies include ethnic Poles from Inflanty (= modern Latvia and Estonia), which used to be part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parnawa_Voivodeship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorpat_Voivodeship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenden_Voivodeship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflanty_Voivodeship

    These Poles were used to represent ethnic Polish population as a whole in Kushniarevich et al. 2015. I've uploaded them to GEDmatch Genesis:

    From Behar et al. 2013:

    LZ6789348 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia Pole12p_1m
    KZ8706898 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL132
    AZ8283838 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL133
    EK6054770 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL136
    TK3628144 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL137
    EZ6423511 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL138
    XF3966585 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL140
    DR5396941 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL141
    LK5514818 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL142
    GL2046169 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL143

    From Tambets et al. 2018:

    LK5810440 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL135
    KC6230115 - Tambets 2018 - PL148
    HE4756510 - Tambets 2018 - PL149
    HN5578439 - Ethnic Polish in Estonia PL150
    XD1211284 - Tambets 2018 - PL151

    From Pagani et al. 2016:

    BD1045630 - Estonian Pole1 Kohtla-Järve (from this town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohtla-J%C3%A4rve )
    JR7565919 - Pagani 2016 Estonian Pole2
    PB4657964 - Pagani 2016 Estonian Pole3

    There is also Pole4 in that Pagani 2016 study, but this one is from Wroclaw. The other three are from Estonia.

    =====

    BTW, it would be nice if they DNA-tested some ethnic Polish people from Latvia, Lithuania and Belarus as well.

    According to the official Soviet census of 1959 (first after WW2), the number of ethnic Poles in the USSR was:

    Belarus - 538,881
    Ukraine - 363,297
    Lithuania - 230,107
    Latvia - 59,774
    Estonia - 2,256

    Rest of the USSR - 185,967

    So the Polish minority in Latvia is much larger than in Estonia, and it is long-established. Here a good article:

    https://deepbaltic.com/2016/06/08/th...nd-occupation/

    There is even the so called "Polish Corner" (map) in southern Latvia, where Poles used to be the majority:

    http://bc.wbp.lublin.pl/dlibra/plain-content?id=10954

    http://kpbc.umk.pl/Content/51727/zblizenia6.pdf

    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-23-2019 at 06:36 AM.

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  3. #2
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    I'm not sure why so many studies (such as those by Behar and the 2015 "Genetic Heritage of Balto-Slavs") are using Estonian Poles:

    https://polishgenes.blogspot.com/201...ian-poles.html

    If anything, it would make more sense to use Latvian Poles, because Poles in Latvia have been more numerous throughout history:

    Ethnic structure of Estonia and Latvia and - bonus - Finland, in 1835-1861:



    Ethnic structure of Estonia and Latvia (Estland/Livland/Kurland) in year 1859:



    Ethnic structure of Estonia and Latvia (Estland/Livland/Kurland) in 1834-1858:



    =====

    Ethnic structure of Pribaltika - Courland, Livonian & Estonian Governorates - in 1795:
    (according to Kabuzan's "Nations of Russia..." published in Moscow in year 1990)

    Numbers in thousands:



    =====

    And some data from Stanisław Plater's "Geography of Eastern Europe", published in 1825:

    Ethnic structure of the Duchy of Courland with the District of Pilten (today Southern Latvia), which was Poland's fiefdom, in 1795 (estimates based on Kabuzan's 1990 "Nations of Russia..." and Stanisław Plater's 1825 "Geography of Eastern Europe..."):

    - ca. 360,000 Latvians
    - ca. 50,000 Germans (this is high estimate, I've seen lower ones too)
    - up to 20,000 Poles (also high estimate, could be closer to 10,000)
    - ca. 10,000 Jews (later during the 1800s percent of Jews increased)
    - ca. 10,000 Lithuanians

    Poles in Courland were mainly concentrated in its eastern part around Ilukste and Daugavpils.

    Vitebsk Governorate (today divided between Belarus and Latvia) according to Stanisław Plater:

    Poles, Nobles & Townsmen - 30,000
    Belarusians, Peasants - 500,000
    Latvians, Peasants - 120,000
    Russians, Peasants - 30,000
    Jews - 120,000

    By religion:

    Roman Catholics - 150,000 (Poles & Latvians)
    Greek Uniates - 400,000 (Belarusians)
    Greek Orientalists - 100,000 (Belarusians)
    Old Believers - 30,000 (Russians)
    Israelites - 120,000 (Jews)



    =====

    Poles in Latvia in 2011 census, Polish minority has traditionally inhabited two regions of Latvia, Selonia and Latgale:



    Regions of Latvia:

    http://www.inne-jezyki.amu.edu.pl/Fr...uage/Details/1



    =====

    There was also the so called "Polish Corner" in south Latvia.

    After WW1 the largest % of Poles was in six municipalities/communes and one town to the south of Daugava River:

    The size of this area is around 1500 square kilometers:



    ^^^
    Share of ethnic Poles in that area in 1919-1920 was between 1/3 and 1/2 of the population, depending on source:

    http://bc.wbp.lublin.pl/dlibra/plain-content?id=10954

    http://kpbc.umk.pl/Content/51727/zblizenia6.pdf

    1) According to the Polish census of 1919:

    Commune Poles % Belarusians % Latvians % Russians % Jews % others % Total
    Borne 2084 98.6% 9 0.4% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 21 1% 2114
    Saliena 1259 36.6% 1118 32.5% 759 22.1% 254 7.4% 4 0.1% 43 1.3% 3437
    Silene 1510 55.1% 81 3% 367 13.4% 743 27.1% 0 0% 41 1.5% 2742
    Skrudaliena 1250 45.5% 0 0% 152 5.5% 1330 48.4% 18 0.7% 0 0% 2750
    Demene 1222 70.7% 37 2.1% 51 3% 419 24.2% 0 0% 0 0% 1729
    Kalkuni 1882 41% 28 0.6% 67 1.4% 2322 50.6% 112 2.4% 177 3.9% 4588
    Town Griva 647 38.7% 18 1.1% 42 2.5% 877 52.4% 89 5.3% 0 0% 1673
    TOTAL 9854 51.8% 1273 6.7% 1438 7.6% 5945 31.2% 223 1.2% 282 1.5% 19033

    2) According to the Latvian census of 1920:

    Commune Poles % Belarusians % Latvians % Russians % Jews % others % Total
    Borne 583 28.1% 1054 50.7% 307 14.8% 56 2.7% 30 1% 47 2.7% 2077
    Saliena 1085 32.2% 217 6.4% 789 23.4% 1233 36.6% 0 0% 44 1.4% 3368
    Silene 770 27.6% 791 28.3% 172 6.2% 805 28.8% 244 8.7% 9 0.4% 2791
    Skrudaliena 1167 40.5% 214 7.4% 179 6.2% 1295 44.9% 21 0.7% 8 0.3% 2884
    Demene 663 38% 559 32% 75 4.3% 421 24.1% 5 0.3% 24 1.3% 1747
    Kalkuni 1853 36.9% 180 3.6% 180 3.6% 2102 41.8% 23 0.5% 687 13.7% 5025
    Town Griva 855 34.8% 0 0% 49 2% 1332 54.2% 161 6.6% 61 2.4% 2458
    TOTAL 6976 34.3% 3015 14.8% 1751 8.6% 7244 35.6% 484 2.4% 880 4.3% 20350

    ^^^ Even the census of 1989 revealed still significant percentages of ethnic Polish population in this area, namely: in Sventes (Swenten) 32.2%, Demenes (Demeń) 29.4%, Medumu (Medum) 24.6%, Laukezes (Łankiesy) 24.2%, Salienas (Sołonaj) 22.0%, Taboras (Tabor) 19.8%, Lidumnieku (Liduminek) 18.0%, Vecealienas (Stary Sołonaj) 17.6%, Kalkune (Kałkuny) 17.6%) and in Skrudelienas (Skrudelino) 17.2%.

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  5. #3
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    A lot of text from your side

    Inflanty doesn't mean anything nowadays. The region is called Latgale in Latvia. It is different from the rest of Latvia, because most people there are Catholic, not Lutheran. On the paper, there are thousands of Poles, but in reality they all are assimilated long ago, most of them consider themselves as Latvians, although another part of them think they are Russians because of russification. I think there are a couple of Polish schools there, but nobody speaks Polish, it is either Latvian or Russian. That's my experience from personal interaction with people from the region.

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    Interview with two Poles of Daugavpils, from "Poland's linguistic heritage" website:



    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    The region is called Latgale in Latvia. It is different from the rest of Latvia, because most people there are Catholic, not Lutheran.
    South-Eastern Selonia (around Ilukste) is also largely Catholic, isn't it?

    In the past, Inflanty was a name for a much larger region than today:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    On the paper, there are thousands of Poles, but in reality they all are assimilated long ago, most of them consider themselves as Latvians, although another part of them think they are Russians because of russification.
    Really?

    Some people think that one of ministers in Law and Justice government was "Russian" because she was born in Dyneburg:
    (of course a conspiracy theory emerged that the Polish government is pro-Putin and that's why chose a "Russian" minister)

    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Czerwi%C5%84ska

    https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/st...15820372692992

    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-22-2019 at 06:34 AM.

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    It would be very interesting indeed if they tested more of the Polish diaspora in northeastern Europe. Non-Estonian Poles, like you and I have both noted, seem to score Estonian Polish on gedmatch calf’s often, probably speaking to a limited set of ethnic Poles venturing out to these areas. I have a personal bias and motivation to see an analysis on Litvin Poles, combinations of moderns in Belarus and pre Great War.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    South-Eastern Selonia (around Ilukste) is also largely Catholic, isn't it?
    Yes, it is. However, Latvia in general is much less religious than Poland. And the region is rapidly losing its population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Really?

    Some people think that one of ministers in Law and Justice government was "Russian" because she was born in Dyneburg:
    (of course a conspiracy theory emerged that the Polish government is pro-Putin and that's why chose a "Russian" minister)
    I am speaking from my experience, being from Latvia and knowing some people from the region. Although yes, the region is a bit less Russian than 30 years ago, but still it is much more Russian than Latvian.

    Officially, Latvia has a very strict system counting ethnic minorities. You cannot choose your ethnicity, you can be only the ethnicity of your parents. So, genetically, that minister is of course Polish. Ideologically, on the other hand, she can be a fan of Putin.

    Another woman from the region which has been quite popular in Poland is Jelena Matula from the Voice of Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    So, genetically, that minister is of course Polish.
    What do you mean? Are Latvian Poles genetically the same as Poles from Poland? How do you know it, have you seen their DNA results?

    For example, I'm autosomally closer to Slovenians than to Latvians. Are Polish Latvians also closer to Slovenians than to fellow Latvians?

    You know, Latvian Poles are indigenous there since the 1500s, they are not recent immigrants (such as Russians and Ukrainians in Latvia):

    https://polishgenes.blogspot.com/201...revich-et.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    I am speaking from my experience, being from Latvia
    Well, I wouldn't know this, I thought that you were from Ukraine (just based on the flag in your profile - I guess it represents ancestry?).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-01-2019 at 09:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What do you mean? Are Latvian Poles genetically the same as Poles from Poland? How do you know it, have you seen their DNA results?

    For example, I'm autosomally closer to Slovenians than to Latvians. Are Polish Latvians also closer to Slovenians than to fellow Latvians?

    You know, Latvian Poles are indigenous there since the 1500s, they are not recent immigrants (such as Russians and Ukrainians in Latvia)
    Many Latvian Poles have come to Latvia quite recently, there was kinda a wave of migration in the interwar period of 1920's-1930's, then some came during the Soviet times. And of course the vast majority is from very far eastern Polish areas which are nowadays in Belarus and Ukraine. So, I highly doubt that they are similar to Slovenians, more like Estonian Poles which are basically almost like Russians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well, I wouldn't know this, I thought that you were from Ukraine (just based on the flag in your profile - I guess it represents ancestry?).
    Yes, it represents my ancestry. I had the Latvian (and other) flags before, but it is confusing people.

  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    And of course the vast majority is from very far eastern Polish areas which are nowadays in Belarus and Ukraine. So, I highly doubt that they are similar to Slovenians, more like Estonian Poles which are basically almost like Russians.
    But many Latvian Poles are descended from Polonized Baltic German nobility: Anders, Plater, Romer, Manteuffel, Rejtan, Tyzenhaus, Hylzen, Denhoff, Felkerzamb, Borch, etc. - all of these Baltic German families were Polonized in the 1500s-1700s.

    Władysław Anders, Eugeniusz Romer, Tadeusz Rejtan, Tadeusz Manteuffel-Szoege , Stanisław Broel-Plater, etc. - these Poles with entries on Wikipedia were descended from Polonized Baltic Germans (Livonian Knights):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Manteuffel

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugeniusz_Romer

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Anders

    https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Plater

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Rejtan

    Edit:

    Another Polonized Romer:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Isidore_Romer
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-02-2019 at 08:41 PM.

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    I have studied the history of Baltic Germans in Latvia. Indeed, there have been Baltic Germans in eastern Latvia who mixed with Poles. But this is definitely not the majority, but a tiny minority of Poles in Latvia. In eastern Latvia, where most Poles lived, there were mostly Russians, Belarusians and eastern Latvians. So, it should be assumed that local Poles mixed most with them. However, no genetic studies on Latvian Poles have been conducted til now.

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