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Thread: U152 in North-East Italy (Coia et al 2103)

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    U152 in North-East Italy (Coia et al 2103)

    Coia et al (2013). Demographic Histories, Isolation and Social Factors as Determinants of the Genetic Structure of Alpine Linguistic Groups
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0081704

    As was confirmed by Boattini et al (2013), U152 has its frequency peak in northern Italy. But, Boattini's data also showed an interesting pattern - one where U152 was less frequent in Adriatic North East Italy, but when it did occur, it was more likely to be made up of L2 lineages. Coia's data now gives us some further clarity on the matter.

    - Coming in close to Brescia's 51.3% (per Boattini), Val Badia is a close second in overall U152 frequency with 50.0%. However, what constitutes U152 is very different between the two areas, with Brescia being very high in U152(xL2) (38.5%) and Val Badia dominated by L2+ (47.7%).

    - In terms of overall U152 frequency, it is much more frequent in Italian speaking populations (table below - green header), is somewhat less frequent in Ladin speaking populations (blue header) and much less frequent in German speaking populations (red header):



    - The only U152 subclade to be tested by Coia was L2. U152(xL2) dominates in Italian speaking populations (84.2% of overall U152) whereas L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) and to a lesser extent, German speaking populations:



    - It's tough to say if the current U152/L2 divide is a product of the post-Roman linguistic breakup of Latin (Italian/Ladin) or more of a north-of-the-Alps / south-of-the-Alps division related to Copper/Bronze Age populations. Z36 seems to stretch from western Switzerland to Tuscany and L2 from eastern Switzerland to South Tyrol. As a point of reference, Bavaria also has a higher percentage of L2 (Rebala et al 2012) at 63.4%. Much of the eastern Alpine areas have cultural ties from the Central European Bell Beaker province (Begleitkeramik), continuing through the Arbon and Polada Cultures and through to the Inneralpine Bronzezeitkultur (Inner Alpine Bronze Age Culture).

    Of course, we still wait for Z36, Z56 and PF6658/Z193 and their subclades to make their way into academic studies to give us a clearer picture of what is an interesting, albeit complex distribution of U152.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 12-09-2013 at 11:36 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Wow! That is a sharp break between Fersina and Fiemme. The Adige River Valley seems to be the boundary between L2 an xL2. These Alpine Valleys and the passes associated with them, may have some clues for us.

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    Thanks for this information Richard! Very interesting!

    I looked at the abstract and didn't see an reference to subclades of L2. Is there any mention of Z49+, Z142+, Z150+, Z152+ or other downstream subclades of L2+ in this study?
    Last edited by Pigmon; 12-10-2013 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigmon View Post
    Thanks for this information Richard! Very interesting!

    I looked at the abstract and didn't see an reference to subclades of L2. Is there any mention of Z49+, Z142+, Z150+, Z152+ or other downstream subclades of L2+ in this study?
    They only tested for U152 and L2, nothing else downstream.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Coia et al (2013). Demographic Histories, Isolation and Social Factors as Determinants of the Genetic Structure of Alpine Linguistic Groups
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0081704

    As was confirmed by Boattini et al (2013), U152 has its frequency peak in northern Italy. But, Boattini's data also showed an interesting pattern - one where U152 was less frequent in Adriatic North East Italy, but when it did occur, it was more likely to be made up of L2 lineages. Coia's data now gives us some further clarity on the matter.

    - Coming in close to Brescia's 51.3% (per Boattini), Val Badia is a close second in overall U152 frequency with 50.0%. However, what constitutes U152 is very different between the two areas, with Brescia being very high in U152(xL2) (38.5%) and Val Badia dominated by L2+ (47.7%).

    - In terms of overall U152 frequency, it is much more frequent in Italian speaking populations (table below - green header), is somewhat less frequent in Ladin speaking populations (blue header) and much less frequent in German speaking populations (red header):



    - The only U152 subclade to be tested by Coia was L2. U152(xL2) dominates in Italian speaking populations (84.2% of overall U152) whereas L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) and to a lesser extent, German speaking populations:



    - It's tough to say if the current U152/L2 divide is a product of the post-Roman linguistic breakup of Latin (Italian/Ladin) or more of a north-of-the-Alps / south-of-the-Alps division related to Copper/Bronze Age populations. Z36 seems to stretch from western Switzerland to Tuscany and L2 from eastern Switzerland to South Tyrol. As a point of reference, Bavaria also has a higher percentage of L2 (Rebala et al 2012) at 63.4%. Much of the eastern Alpine areas have cultural ties from the Central European Bell Beaker province (Begleitkeramik), continuing through the Arbon and Polada Cultures and through to the Inneralpine Bronzezeitkultur (Inner Alpine Bronze Age Culture).

    Of course, we still wait for Z36, Z56 and PF6658/Z193 and their subclades to make their way into academic studies to give us a clearer picture of what is an interesting, albeit complex distribution of U152.
    the other part of the paper of the paper you commented on
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0056371

    would not the L2 of the Ladin ( ancient Raetic people who learnt latin over time ) people show similar markers to modern bavarians and swabians. The ancient Raetic lands basically was south of the danube of germany to verona and to eastern switzerland ( we can include the vindelici people of the black forest area here as well ).
    Considering that bavarians and swabians where the last to become germanized , I think L2 was a very early migration into the alpine areas


    L2 could also be part of
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canegrate_culture
    Last edited by vettor; 12-10-2013 at 05:17 PM.

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    Gallia_cisalpina.jpg

    So would the the ancient Italian population (brown) represent U152>L2 and the Transalpine Gauls (green) represent U152xL2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmental View Post
    Gallia_cisalpina.jpg

    So would the the ancient Italian population (brown) represent U152>L2 and the Transalpine Gauls (green) represent U152xL2?
    I don't think there is a correlation. L2 is more frequent as a percentage of U152 in some of the green "Celtic Tribe" areas on the map (Carni and Leponzi). Also, L2 makes up a very large percentage of U152 in France, etc. which were obviously Celtic. The breakup of U152 in Italy seems to be older than the Iron Age.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 12-10-2013 at 07:18 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I don't think there is a correlation. L2 is more frequent as a percentage of U152 in some of the green "Celtic Tribe" areas on the map (Carni and Leponzi). Also, L2 makes up a very large percentage of U152 in France, etc. which were obviously Celtic. The breakup of U152 in Italy seems to be older than the Iron Age.
    ??

    clearly the 93% of L2 comes is in the brown area which states raeti and camuni ( part of the eugenei tribe along with the stoni tribe)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganei
    The numbers lower as you head into central northern italy and lower still the more south you go.

    clearly L2 is non Italic people, but more so a gallic/celtic/rhaetic people

    The carni are either original people of the north-east alps as per italian sources ( carnico and are still there today) or gallic people as per english sources

    numbers from paper
    28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;

    10.5% R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley 12/49 samples)
    Last edited by vettor; 12-12-2013 at 05:16 AM.

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    In my opinion it is useless to test U152 and L2 because they are too common.
    Should test a level below
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

  13. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Alessio B. Bedini View Post
    In my opinion it is useless to test U152 and L2 because they are too common.
    Should test a level below
    Above all I said to you that many surprises will come from what is a paragroup L2* now, comprising yours. To think to R-L2 like something homogeneous is probably wrong.

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