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Thread: Huge horse paper (with major implications for the PIE homeland) coming in days

  1. #141
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    Maybe I'm easily baffled, but I am baffled by the reluctance to admit that early steppe people were riding horses, given all the evidence and just the simple, common sense realization that climbing onto the back of a horse is a natural thing to do, more natural than constructing carts, wagons, and chariots.

    We know there was osteological evidence of horseback riding among Kurgan Bell Beaker people by the second half of the third millennium BC. I'm guessing one would have to spend a lot of time on the back of a horse for it to show up in his bones, and I doubt horseback riding was invented by Beaker people.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    This conversation reminds me of the idea that it would be impossible to use a bow from horseback until the development of compound bows. I asked a friend a while back for his thoughts, he's taught archery for years and makes his own long bows (cabinet maker by trade), he couldn't see why there should be an issue.
    This is an interesting bit of video, if too short.


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  5. #143
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    Lest anyone think a saddle and stirrups are absolutely necessary, there's the video below (remember that this represents this gentleman's first foray into shooting a bow from horseback).



    Here's another one. The young woman spends a few minutes getting her horse used to the idea, so you can skip ahead to about 5:40 in the video. She's not using a longbow, but she's not using a saddle, stirrups or even a bridle either.

    Last edited by rms2; 08-14-2019 at 01:57 PM.

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  7. #144
    Actually we have such a PIE word for horse, which can connect Europeans as a root/source here.

    In the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Kanac" we find the forms Isperih and Esperih, and in a medieval apocryphal an old ruler is called Ispar king.
    And of course Asparuh Kanac U Bigi.
    the name of Paeonian King Autl-esbis, as well as the toponym Ar-isba mentioned by Homer, and concludes that esbis, isba are alternative Thracian words for horse.
    We have that root and in the name of the Phrygian nobleman Asvios, mentioned by Homer, we find another Thracian word for horse, that is - asva.
    Ut-aspios and Ved-espis are epithets of Heros/Thracian horseman, the supreme deity of the Thracians.

    In Sanskrit aśvāroha
    1. rider
    2. Aśva - अश्व, in addition to "horse" means "archer" (incl. Sagittarius zodiac), and roha - रोह e and "shooting", "riding"

    aspa, (aspios), espis, esbis, isba, asva are different Thracian names for horse. The considerable number of variations is
    due to the fact that our Thracians were a huge people consisting of many groups, each group having its own dialect.
    one of the Thracian words - aspa is identical to the Avestan (Old Iranian) word aspa-horse.
    The fluctuation between A and E is typical of the Thracian language and of course Bulgarian.
    This was explained more than thirty years ago by Academician Vl. Georgiev. This scientist also
    mentioned another phonetic phenomenon characteristic of the Thracian, namely the transition of E to I.

    the meaning of the Thracian word aspios / espis is speed, and an explanation can be obtained with the help of oldbg. спѣхъ-speed спѣшѫ- hurry,
    whose more ancient form was *aспѣхъ, aспѣшѫ
    The link also shows the σπέυδω / σπεῦσε used by Homer -hurry, run, speed.

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  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Lest anyone think a saddle and stirrups are absolutely necessary, there's the video below (remember that this represents this gentleman's first foray into shooting a bow from horseback).



    Here's another one. The young woman spends a few minutes getting her horse used to the idea, so you can skip ahead to about 5:40 in the video. She's not using a longbow, but she's not using a saddle, stirrups or even a bridle either.

    RE saddle:
    "They have neither saddles nor bridles for their horses, like those the Graecians or Celtae make use of"
    "The Indians wear linen garments, as Nearchus says, the linen coming from the trees of which I have already made mention. This linen is either brighter than the whiteness of other linen, or the people's own blackness makes it appear unusually bright. They have a linen tunic to the middle of the calf, and for outer garments, one thrown round about their shoulders, and one wound round their heads. They wear ivory ear-rings, that is, the rich Indians; the common people do not use them. Nearchus writes that they dye their beards various colours; some therefore have these as white-looking as possible, others dark, others crimson, others purple, others grass-green. The more dignified Indians use sunshades against the summer heat. They have slippers of white skin, and these too made neatly; and the soles of their sandals are of different colours, and also high, so that the wearers seem taller. Indian war equipment differs; the infantry have a bow, of the height of the owner; this they poise on the ground, and set their left foot against it, and shoot thus; drawing the bowstring a very long way back; for their arrows are little short of three cubits, and nothing can stand against an arrow shot by an Indian archer, neither shield nor breastplate nor any strong armour. In their left hands they carry small shields of untanned hide, narrower than their bearers, but not much shorter. Some have javelins in place of bows. All carry a broad scimitar, its length not under three cubits; and this, when they have a hand-to-hand fight -- and Indians do not readily fight so among themselves -- they bring down with both hands in smiting, so that the stroke may be an effective one. Their horsemen have two javelins, like lances, and a small shield smaller than the infantry's. The horses have no saddles, nor do they use Greek bits nor any like the Celtic bits, but round the end of the horses' mouths they have an untanned stitched rein fitted; in this they have fitted, on the inner side, bronze or iron spikes, but rather blunted; the rich people have ivory spikes; within the mouth of the horses is a bit, like a spit, to either end of which the reins are attached. Then when they tighten the reins this bit masters the horse, and the spikes, being attached thereto, prick the horse and compel it to obey the rein.
    VII. The Indians in shape are thin and tall and much lighter in movement than the rest of mankind. They usually ride on camels, horses, and asses; the richer men on elephants. For the elephant in India is a royal mount; then next in dignity is a four-horse chariot, and camels come third; to ride on a single horse is low."
    Last edited by parasar; 01-11-2020 at 06:12 AM.

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  11. #146
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    My youngest daughter and I got to ride an elephant together at a circus once. It was one of the most fun things I've ever done.

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  13. #147
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    Its interesting to get to know that european horses originated from east horses. But it's no suprise, since most things originated from the east.

  14. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Horses were probably ridden almost as soon as they were domesticated, and they were definitely domesticated at least as early as the Bronze Age in multiple regions, such as the Kazakh steppe, Pontic-Caspian steppe and Iberia.

    But I don't think that horse riding was systematically used for anything until the Scythian period, and, I suspect, this is why chariots were so popular from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.

    So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.


    I know this will sound a bit unserious but obviously that was the pants. I am not a man but I can imagine if they try to ride without pantalons, that's kind of suicide... for some delicate parts of their bodies.

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    A new horse paper

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y


    Abstract


    While classic models for the emergence of pastoral groups in Inner Asia describe mounted, horse-borne herders sweeping across the Eurasian Steppes during the Early or Middle Bronze Age (ca. 3000–1500 BCE), the actual economic basis of many early pastoral societies in the region is poorly characterized. In this paper, we use collagen mass fingerprinting and ancient DNA analysis of some of the first stratified and directly dated archaeofaunal assemblages from Mongolia’s early pastoral cultures to undertake species identifications of this rare and highly fragmented material. Our results provide evidence for livestock-based, herding subsistence in Mongolia during the late 3rd and early 2nd millennia BCE. We observe no evidence for dietary exploitation of horses prior to the late Bronze Age, ca. 1200 BCE – at which point horses come to dominate ritual assemblages, play a key role in pastoral diets, and greatly influence pastoral mobility. In combination with the broader archaeofaunal record of Inner Asia, our analysis supports models for widespread changes in herding ecology linked to the innovation of horseback riding in Central Asia in the final 2nd millennium BCE. Such a framework can explain key broad-scale patterns in the movement of people, ideas, and material culture in Eurasian prehistory.

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  18. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    A new horse paper

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y


    Abstract


    While classic models for the emergence of pastoral groups in Inner Asia describe mounted, horse-borne herders sweeping across the Eurasian Steppes during the Early or Middle Bronze Age (ca. 3000–1500 BCE), the actual economic basis of many early pastoral societies in the region is poorly characterized. In this paper, we use collagen mass fingerprinting and ancient DNA analysis..............broad-scale patterns in the movement of people, ideas, and material culture in Eurasian prehistory.
    With so many potential cow and or sheep samples, it would be interesting to see the origins of pastoralist lineages of Caucasian-Afansievo, Yamnaya, and the Northern Caucasus-Steppe groups.
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-24-2020 at 11:33 AM.
    Central Europe East (YBP 12K-18K+/-)--Palæolithic Yamnaya like derived/related samples>R1b-Z2103+>R1b-Z2110+ -Yamnaya-Afanasievo -3300–2600 BC, Poltavka- Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Csepel Island Hungary, Vucedol, Eastern Bell Beakers-2800–1800 BCE, Karagash-Khazakhstan 3018-2887 BC-Iran Hajji_Firuz I2327 , Rise 397 Kapan LBA, Armenia , Sarmatian-4th, - 2nd centuries BCE....-Outliers Poland--Sintashta--R1a-Dyad Kuyavia sample & R1b-L52 Rzeszow Foothills Corded Ware, R1b-Z2109 Sintashta !

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