Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 143

Thread: Huge horse paper (with major implications for the PIE homeland) coming in days

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,760
    Sex

    Huge horse paper (with major implications for the PIE homeland) coming in days

    This has just appeared at the ENA...

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB31613

    The abstract doesn't give much away, except that native Iberian and Siberian horses are now extinct, and basically so is their DNA, and that modern horses owe a lot to Medieval breeds from the Near East (Arabians, Turkomens, and so on).

    The sample list is huge, and includes these horses (their dates are at the ends of the labels). Look at the list of samples from Eastern Europe and Iran. This is probably not a coincidence. Horses are important to the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland debate because of the early horse cult peculiar to Indo-European cultures. My bet is that one or more of those forest steppe/steppe horses from the Mesolithic to the Copper Age is going to be shown to be ancestral to the modern domesticated horse lineage, and if so, that'll be a huge bonus for the steppe PIE homeland theory. Note also the Copper Age and Iron Age samples from Iran. They'll also be informative about where the modern domesticated horse originated and how and when it spread.

    Altata_NB31_Neolithic
    Belkaragay_NB13_CopperAge
    Belkaragay_NB15_CopperAge
    CaminoDeLasYeseras_CdY2_4678 (Bell Beaker horse?)
    Derkul_NB2_Neolithic
    Derkul_NB4_Neolithic
    Kokorevo_Rus3_14450
    LebyazhinkaIV_NB35_Neolithic
    PotapovkaI_1_3900
    Sagzabad_SAGS27_3117
    Sintashta_NB44_3577
    Sintashta_NB45_3577
    TepeHasanlu_1140_2682
    TepeHasanlu_2327_2352
    TepeHasanlu_2529_2352
    TepeHasanlu_2689_2352
    TepeHasanlu_3394_2808
    TepeHasanlu_3398_2352
    TepeHasanlu_3459_2667
    TepeHasanlu_3461_2930
    TepeHasanlu_368_2896
    TepeMehrAli_Trj12x31_CopperAge
    Yerqorqan_YER28_2853

  2. The Following 27 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-26-2019),  Alain (08-13-2019),  Camulogčne Rix (04-29-2019),  Celt_?? (05-08-2019),  Coldmountains (04-28-2019),  etrusco (04-28-2019),  GTC (04-28-2019),  Helen (04-30-2019),  Helgenes50 (05-03-2019),  jdean (04-28-2019),  JMcB (04-29-2019),  Judith (05-06-2019),  Kellebel (09-30-2019),  MikeWhalen (04-28-2019),  Mingle (05-07-2019),  Moe12 (08-05-2019),  parasar (05-08-2019),  pmokeefe (04-28-2019),  Power77 (07-26-2019),  rms2 (04-28-2019),  Ruderico (04-28-2019),  Ryukendo (08-12-2019),  [email protected] (04-28-2019),  Stone Meadow (08-04-2019),  Táltos (07-26-2019),  traject (04-28-2019),  xenus (04-28-2019)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,760
    Sex

    Whoops, some of those "horses" from Iran in that paper are actually onagers and donkeys.

    Should've looked at their species classifications.

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-26-2019),  jdean (04-28-2019),  JMcB (04-29-2019),  MikeWhalen (04-28-2019),  Power77 (07-26-2019),  rms2 (04-28-2019),  [email protected] (04-28-2019),  Táltos (07-26-2019)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    12,072
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Thanks for the news. I've been looking forward to that paper ever since I saw this interview with Dr. Outram.

     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-13-2019),  Generalissimo (04-28-2019),  Helen (04-30-2019),  JMcB (04-29-2019),  MikeWhalen (04-28-2019),  Mingle (05-07-2019),  pmokeefe (04-28-2019),  Ruderico (04-28-2019)

  7. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    12,072
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Not trying to be insulting, but Dr. Outram reminds me of this famous character.

    Popeye.jpg

    Since Popeye was a hero of mine when I was a kid, comparison to him is actually a form of flattery.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (05-05-2019),  MikeWhalen (04-28-2019),  peternorth (04-29-2019),  RCO (04-29-2019),  [email protected] (05-04-2019)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    788
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    We show that the influence of Persian-related horse lineages increased following the Islamic conquests in Europe and Asia.
    The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

  10. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    12,072
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but, although the Alans were an Iranian-speaking people, they weren't native to Iran but to Central Asia and moved into the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the 1st century AD. They later invaded Parthia (i.e., Iran), but they were already horse-borne pastoralists.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  11. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-13-2019),  Generalissimo (04-29-2019),  JMcB (04-29-2019),  Mis (04-29-2019),  Ruderico (04-29-2019),  xenus (05-04-2019)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,760
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.
    Strange comment.

    It's actually well documented that most Western European horse breeds have recent origins post-dating the medieval (Alan) period, and in fact largely descend from Arabian and Turkomen horses, especially in terms of paternal ancestry.

    There was a paper about that published recently...

    We interpreted the predominance of the crown haplogroup in Western European and North American breeds as a consequence of the extreme preference of stallions of Oriental origin during the past few hundred years.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42640-w

    But of course this has nothing to do with the question of whether the modern domestic horse ultimately comes from the steppe or not. It probably does, because even Arabian and Turkomen horses are closely related to Sintashta and Scythian horses.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 04-29-2019 at 02:19 AM.

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-13-2019),  JMcB (04-29-2019),  palamede (05-09-2019),  rms2 (04-29-2019)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    788
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    That's the best book about the Alans:
    Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation

    https://books.google.com.br/books?isbn=9004114424

    We can read a good part in google books.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

  15. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,432
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1


  16. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Chad Rohlfsen For This Useful Post:

     Alain (08-13-2019),  Arame (05-03-2019),  Helen (05-04-2019),  Helgenes50 (05-03-2019),  parasar (05-08-2019),  pmokeefe (05-05-2019),  razyn (05-03-2019),  rms2 (05-02-2019),  traject (05-02-2019)

  17. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,760
    Sex

    The sampling strategy in this paper was a let down. No horses from Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, etc. So it says nothing about the homeland of the modern domesticated horse lineage aka the Indo-European horse.

    But there were some interesting things in this paper. It looks like Bell Beaker horses were mostly derived from Sintashta-related steppe horses, but at least some also had Iberian ancestry. And these horses with Iberian ancestry were later totally replaced in Europe.

    La Tene (Celtic), Gallo-Roman, Pictish, and Viking horses are all Sintashta-related horses with no Iberian ancestry! Here's a schematic with a few words on the topic...

    Last edited by Generalissimo; 05-04-2019 at 01:13 AM.

  18. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-26-2019),  Alain (08-13-2019),  Camulogčne Rix (05-03-2019),  Garimund (05-08-2019),  Greekscholar (07-26-2019),  Helen (05-04-2019),  Helgenes50 (05-03-2019),  Kellebel (09-30-2019),  Kulin (05-04-2019),  MikeWhalen (05-03-2019),  Power77 (07-26-2019),  rms2 (05-03-2019),  Ruderico (05-03-2019),  Táltos (07-26-2019)

Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 232
    Last Post: 10-03-2019, 11:26 AM
  2. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-29-2018, 03:56 AM
  3. Search issues the last 2 days
    By Poincare in forum AncestryDNA
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-21-2018, 07:46 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-13-2018, 05:40 AM
  5. Tokenzation not complete for 10 days
    By tahir0010 in forum General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-03-2017, 08:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •