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Thread: DNA of the Chieftains of Ireland, Scottish Clan Chieftains and Kings of South Wales

  1. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevlos21 View Post
    FGC13418 It's downstream of L226


    R-BY121634 downstream of CTS4466
    Trevlos21,

    Have the current holders of the Chiefships actually tested for these two?

  2. #712
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    L21>L226>FGC5639

    England Germany Netherlands France Ireland Switzerland
    I think that the R-L226 haplogroup is very fortunate as YDNA really maps very well with pre-surname histories of various DalCais surnames. Here some important
    observations:

    1) We are very lucky that Conor O'Brien tested and that his lineage is well documented back to around 1,000 AD and King Brian Boru.
    2) L226 is only 1,500 YBP then there is massive genetic bottleneck of YSNPs with L226 and just above L226. This time frame is very close
    to most of the ancestries of King Brian Boru.
    3) However, there are stilll misconceptions that most L226 O'Brien descend from King Brian Boru. In reality DC782 is very close to King
    Brian Boru - yet many other O'Briens belong to other surname clusters. There are related to the ancestors of King Brian Boru - but not
    direct descendants of King Brian Boru.
    4) Charting has been key to unraveling the connections under L226. Using both YSNPs and YSTRs, we have four times as many branches
    as the YSNP only testing shows. YSTRs are very important and Y700 YSTRs are starting to be important now as well. We now have
    28 surname clusters revealed under L226. I define a surname cluster of having a minimum of five testers with the same surname and
    that the NPE rate must be less than 50 % for any branch under the surname cluster.
    5) We always thought L226 had Irish origins since 95 % of the testers have Dal Cais surnames and Irish surnames. But with targeted
    testing just above L226 and the discovery of DC70 (one of two sons of L226) and discovered surname with very few connections
    to Ireland. 90 % of surnames above FGC5660 (the other son of L226, DC70 are not Dal Cais or Irish surnames. They are primarily
    English but also French and German surnames. We now believe that FGC5660 did occur in Ireland but branches above this (including
    part of L226 - currently just DC70) did not reside in Ireland due to having very few Irish surnames. We now believe that L226
    itself happened somewhere in western Europe but only two or three generations later FGC5660 resulted in 95 % of L226 having
    Irish origins. Breaking up blocks of YSNPs was very key (as well as some luck with DC70 being so different).

    With charting - our surname clusters have a strong correlation with ancient texts of King Brian Boru's ancestry. DC70 is very revealing
    as to shift in geographic source for surnames (from io.surname):

    Wallace (2) England 30.3K, Scotland 12.1K, Ireland 4.0K
    Walker (1) England 151.8K, Scotland 19.8K, 6.5 K Germany
    Walsh (1) England 48.9K, Ireland 48.7K, Scotland 2.2K
    Manus (1) France 0.3K, Germany 0.2K
    Thomson (1) England 26.8K
    Clift (1) England 2.9K, Wales 0.1K
    Mabe (1) England 0.2K (mostly British colonies)

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf#Page=4

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  4. #713
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    BY198
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    T1a1

    Ireland Scotland Flanders
    Irish chiefships are not like Scottish ones. Scots must prove, the Irish had a scandal with the "MacCarthy Mor" case.

  5. #714
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    L21>BY3437>Y160102
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    H27e

    Ireland Ireland Connacht Ireland County Roscommon Ireland County Galway Ireland County Mayo
    I don't know about the other chiefs but Desmond O'Conor Don and Count Robert de Gallagh et Tycooly have proven lines anyway.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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  7. #715
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    BY18115 contains a O'Connor/McManus cluster. A number of McManus individuals have known genealogy to Roscommon, why this is important is that there are two distinct McManus families in Ireland.
    1. McManus of Connacht -- cadet branch of the O'Connor's who in medieval genealogy are the descendants of Magnus Ua Conchobair d. 1181 (son of High King Tairrdelbach Mór Ua Conchobair d. 1156) who was the brother of Cathal Crobhdearg Ua Conchobair (1153-1224) (King of Connacht) from who the O'Conor Don lineage descend.

    2. McManus of Fermanagh -- who are a branch of the Maguires (and generally show up as L513+)

    A member of the O'Conor Don lineage has done BigY testing, the specific individual is listed in Burkes peerage.

    The broader picture here within M222 is that A259 appears to be a lineage that is specific to the west of Ireland and the various branches map onto surnames linked to the historical Uí Briúin of Connacht. The O'Connor's been the principle family of the Uí Briúin Aí.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    2. McManus of Fermanagh -- who are a branch of the Maguires (and generally show up as L513+)
    There is also a McCauley branch(es) under R1b-Z16337 where the Maguire/McGuire surnames prevail.
    Is there an historical tie of the McManus, McMahon and McCauley folks to the Maguires?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    There is also a McCauley branch(es) under R1b-Z16337 where the Maguire/McGuire surnames prevail.
    Is there an historical tie of the McManus, McMahon and McCauley folks to the Maguires?
    yes, McCauley from the Irish Mac Amhlaoibh (son of Amhlaoibh -- Irish borrowing of Norse name Óláfr).

    The Mac Amhlaoibh of Fermanagh are a branch of the Mag Uidhre (Maguire), their land holdings making up the modern barony of Clanawley eg. Clann Amhlaoibh (the Children of Amhlaoibh). They are supposedly descended from Amlaíb (Middle-irish form - d. 1306) younger son of Donn Óc (Óc -> Óg = young -- d. 1302).

    Donn Óc was the first true Maguire king of Fermanagh, a position the family would retain until the Flight of the Earls in 1607, during which time the vast majority of land within Fermanagh came under ownership/lordship of Maguires and their collaterals.
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    Here is a map showing situation in 1390 when the mainline Ua Conchobhair lineage tore itself apart in civil war between the Ruadh (Red) and Donn (Brown) lineages, and how it played into wider issues such as the Burke civil war in Connacht.



    Figure 1 “Lordships in Ireland, c.1390.” Note: This map is based on an earlier version compiled by Kenneth Nicholls; see Patrick J. Duffy, David Edwards, and Elizabeth FitzPatrick, “Introduction: Recovering Gaelic Ireland, c.1250–c.1650,” in Gaelic Ireland, c.1250–c.1650: Land, Lordship and Settlement, ed. Patrick J. Duffy, David Edwards, and Elizabeth FitzPatrick (Dublin, 2001), 21–73, at 24–25.
    It comes from "Richard II and the Wider Gaelic World: A Reassessment"
    Journal of British Studies, Volume 57, Issue 2
    April 2018 , pp. 221-252
    Simon Egan

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...60/core-reader

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  15. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter MacDonald View Post
    Trevlos21,

    Have the current holders of the Chiefships actually tested for these two?
    Yes they have

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  17. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodo Scariti View Post
    Hello everyone,

    just a question: does it exist a Scottish clan heavy in R1b-U152? Or does it exist chieftains with R1b-U152?
    The chieftain of Scottish Clan Erskine is R1b-Z36.

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